Evolution party 2004

Arabeyes Evolution Party

About

Arabeyes.org took a major evolutionary step on July 29, 2001 when it mutated to its current final form. We, the volunteers, workers, Arabic language lovers and linux enthusiasts, would all like to invite you to celebrate this momentous occasion.

This year's celebrations will be conducted under a "learn as you play" theme. We've invited a number of key developers, movers and shakers in the open source Arabic arena to hear them talk (a Question and Answer session to follow). So come join us celebrate Arabeyes' acomplishments and partake in this learning event.

 Server: irc.freenode.net
 Channel: #arabeyes
 Date: Thursday July 29, 2004
 Duration: 12-hours
 Time: 12:00PM - 12:00AM UTC

What follows it the log.. Please note that the timestamps are based on Dubai time UTC+0400

NOTICE: THIS LOG MAY HAVE SOME ERRORS

Feel free to fix it using: https://gitlab.com/arabeyes-general/ae_admin/external/tree/irc/irc.party_jul2004 as a reference.

== The IRC Log ==
16:00 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+m] by nadim
[[BR]]16:00 <@kuru> nadim: that's to give someone ability to write
[[BR]]16:00 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-m] by nadim
[[BR]]16:00 <@nadim> kuru: I won't remember that :-)
[[BR]]16:00 <@nadim> kuru: so drive :-)
[[BR]]16:00 < abdo> salam all
[[BR]]16:00 <@nadim> I can barely look straight at this hour :-)
[[BR]]16:00 < mako-sama> +m = modurated.. no one without OP or voice (+v) can talk
[[BR]]16:01 < mako-sama> it's that easy
[[BR]]16:01 < Uniball> nadim: salam
[[BR]]16:01 <@nadim> mako-sama: noted.
[[BR]]16:01 <@kuru> nadim: copy and paste to an emacs windows
[[BR]]16:01  * yuyu i back
[[BR]]16:01 <@yuyu> salam all
[[BR]]16:01 <@nadim> kuru: hehe
[[BR]]16:01 <@kuru> nadim: I need to go and grab something to eat.. I'm starving
[[BR]]16:01 -!- yuyu changed the topic of #arabeyes to: Arabeyes.org Evolution Party !!!
[[BR]]16:01 < olimar> Salam yuyu
[[BR]]16:01 < Uniball> yuyu: salam
[[BR]]16:01 -!- phaeron [~phaeron@193.227.28.28] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]16:01 < olimar> pls can someone tell when the whole will start?
[[BR]]16:01 <@yuyu> nadim, did you sleep well ? (ie enough ? ;)
[[BR]]16:01 -!- Seek_Realiity [~RooT@62.135.4.152] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]16:01 < Uniball> so, chix ? beer ?
[[BR]]16:02 < phaeron> Uniball, hi
[[BR]]16:02 <@yuyu> olimar, Uniball, salam
[[BR]]16:02 < mako-sama> so.. First period started
[[BR]]16:02 < phaeron> Salamo 3alekom everyone
[[BR]]16:02 < abdo> osax says salam to all of you by the way
[[BR]]16:02 < olimar> yuyu do you know when the even will start? Now or after an hour?
[[BR]]16:02 <@yuyu> phaeron, salam
[[BR]]16:02 < mako-sama> now
[[BR]]16:02 <@yuyu> olimar, now
[[BR]]16:02 < olimar> wa alaika assalam phaeron
[[BR]]16:02 < mako-sama> it started already
[[BR]]16:03 <@nadim> kuru: do please start us off :-)
[[BR]]16:03 < olimar> ok yuyu thanx
[[BR]]16:03 -!- CVirus_Ya7tasy [~newcomer@217.52.244.1] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]16:03 < CVirus_Ya7tasy> blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
[[BR]]16:03 -!- SoPpY_BoY [~sakia@217.52.244.1] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]16:03 <@yuyu>  ---- Welcome Everybody ----
[[BR]]16:03 < CVirus_Ya7tasy> SoPpY_BoY, 
[[BR]]16:03 -!- nadim changed the topic of #arabeyes to: Arabeyes.org Evolution Party - Schedule http://lists.arabeyes.org/archives/announce/2004/July/msg00000.html
[[BR]]16:03 < CVirus_Ya7tasy> nadim, 
[[BR]]16:03 < mako-sama> kuru went to eat somthing
[[BR]]16:03 -!- CVirus_Ya7tasy is now known as CVirus
[[BR]]16:03 -!- robertoramsis [~BelieVe@217.52.244.1] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]16:03 < SoPpY_BoY> CVirus_Ya7tasy
[[BR]]16:03 <@nadim> mako-sama: heheh
[[BR]]16:03 < CVirus> SoPpY_BoY, 
[[BR]]16:04 <@nadim> well, I can I can start us off by first and foremost thanking everyone for coming !!
[[BR]]16:04 < Uniball> phaeron: hiz
[[BR]]16:04 -!- ChanServ [ChanServ@services.] has quit [ACK! SIGSEGV!]
[[BR]]16:04 < SoPpY_BoY> Uniball
[[BR]]16:04 < CVirus> phaeron, 
[[BR]]16:04 < CVirus> Uniball, \
[[BR]]16:04 <@nadim> Arabeyes, in its third year, has grown alot and that is 100% due to its great volunteers whom are the only ones to thank for everything that has happened
[[BR]]16:04 < bl4ckf0g> who kick chanserv :P
[[BR]]16:04 < Uniball> ok guys, enough. let nadim talk
[[BR]]16:05 < phaeron> Uniball, CVirus yo guyz
[[BR]]16:05 < phaeron> Uniball, can I meet you at night to give you the CD?
[[BR]]16:05 < Uniball> phaeron: hope so
[[BR]]16:05 <@nadim> Arabeyes in the next coming months will be making further changes to align itself a bit more with what other open source projects are doing - ie. we'll be holding elections, we're also working on an updated charter and in general streamlining things
[[BR]]16:06 <@nadim> FYI - we're going into presentation mode here - so bare with us :-)
[[BR]]16:06 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+m] by nadim
[[BR]]16:07 -!- acidtears [~acidtears@217.52.244.1] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]16:07 <@nadim> we are also looking to final open a bank account for proper donations - which ought to happen in a couple of weeks
[[BR]]16:08 <@nadim> so all in all - this past year Arabeyes has really gone from massive changes which are incurred from getting lots of curious people to being a bit more organized
[[BR]]16:09 <@nadim> a number of projects were also started this past year
[[BR]]16:09 <@nadim> I don't remember all (as I wasn't supposed to give this little talk and its WAY too early to be up for me :-) but they are all listed on the projects pages
[[BR]]16:10 <@nadim> with that I'm gonna open it up for Q&A's
[[BR]]16:10 <@yuyu> i can give examples of projects
[[BR]]16:10 <@nadim> keep in mind that kuru and yuyu are also 'core' members and are just as able to answer questions
[[BR]]16:10 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-m] by nadim
[[BR]]16:10 < bl4ckf0g> nadim, i got project too
[[BR]]16:10 -!- ChanServ [ChanServ@services.] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]16:10 -!- ServerMode/#arabeyes [+o ChanServ] by irc.freenode.net
[[BR]]16:10 <@yuyu> translation: mandrake; debian, drupal, ...
[[BR]]16:11 <@nadim> bl4ckf0g: the procedure is to mail your new project requests to 'contact'
[[BR]]16:11 <@yuyu> development: adawat, itl..
[[BR]]16:11 <@nadim> so anyone have any general questions/concerns specific to Arabeyes ?
[[BR]]16:12 <@nadim> now is the time to bring 'em up :-)
[[BR]]16:12 -!- cuco [~cuco@bzq-218-235-242.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)]
[[BR]]16:12 < Uniball> arabizer too
[[BR]]16:12 <@yuyu> Uniball, yeah. and CUPS
[[BR]]16:12 < Uniball> putty
[[BR]]16:13 <@yuyu> the project page is here: https://www.arabeyes.org/CUPS
[[BR]]16:13 <@yuyu> Uniball, that was an old one. it was revived ;)
[[BR]]16:13 <@kuru> ah... good is good.
[[BR]]16:13 < bl4ckf0g> is all arabeyes project is translation?
[[BR]]16:13 <@nadim> are there any projects that we have not dealt with that people would really LOVE to see happen ?
[[BR]]16:13 < Uniball> yuyu: yes, but the actual work was this year
[[BR]]16:13 <@kuru> food
[[BR]]16:13 <@nadim> bl4ckf0g: not at all
[[BR]]16:13 < mako-sama> a question about today's event.. we have all kinds of interesting topics and people today
[[BR]]16:13 <@yuyu> Uniball, ;)
[[BR]]16:13 < mako-sama> but there is nothing about FriBidi
[[BR]]16:13 < abdo> I have a question.
[[BR]]16:13 < mako-sama> :/
[[BR]]16:14 <@nadim> bl4ckf0g: we have both translation and development projects and they are broken into those catagories on the Arabeyes.org project page
[[BR]]16:14 < Uniball> i have a question too, What are we doing here ?
[[BR]]16:14 <@kuru> people from .sa living in .lb are not allowed to ask questions ;)
[[BR]]16:14 -!- cuco [~cuco@bzq-218-235-242.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]16:14 < abdo> :)
[[BR]]16:14 < bl4ckf0g> nadim, can you answer the private plz?
[[BR]]16:14 <@kuru> Uniball: this is "free form".. think of it as "freestyling" in rap
[[BR]]16:14 <@kuru> Uniball: there will be guests coming in later as per the schedule in the referenced archived message
[[BR]]16:14 < Uniball> kuru yes! free speech
[[BR]]16:15 < phaeron> kuru, you make it sound so formal
[[BR]]16:15 < Uniball> kuru L[o]nely is logging too BTW
[[BR]]16:15 < Uniball> i had another one running, but damn the electricity at home
[[BR]]16:15 < olimar> tisch dup tah tisch tup tup tah
[[BR]]16:15 < Uniball> hope this one'll survive ;)
[[BR]]16:15 <@kuru> phaeron: am I supposed to add yo and stylez to it? ;)
[[BR]]16:15 -!- alaa [~alaa@62.135.86.19] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
[[BR]]16:15 <@kuru> kuruLogging is logging.
[[BR]]16:15 < mako-sama> oh right
[[BR]]16:15 < phaeron> kuru, lol
[[BR]]16:15 < mako-sama> how to make irssi log stuff ?
[[BR]]16:15 < Uniball> kuru yes i know :P
[[BR]]16:16 < mako-sama> :p
[[BR]]16:16 <@kuru> abdo: what was your question?
[[BR]]16:16 <@nadim> **SCHEDULE NOTE** for the record - M.yousif's time-slot is now open -- he seems to have a bit of an emergency and noted possibly not coming
[[BR]]16:16 < phaeron> kuru, I wanted to say that during the restucturing there is a point we have to handle
[[BR]]16:16 -!- cooling- [~cooling@213.186.187.67] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
[[BR]]16:16 <@nadim> phaeron: go
[[BR]]16:17 -!- alaa [~alaa@62.135.86.19] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]16:17 < phaeron> All: During my LFS ( linux from scratch ) journey there were certain hurdles I faced
[[BR]]16:17 < abdo> kuru: I wanted to know if Arabeyes has any plans to _REALLY_ get involved in making open source and linux known in the Arab World.
[[BR]]16:17 < abdo> we're doing well in translating and developing, but where's the promoting?
[[BR]]16:17 <@nadim> we have 10 minutes - any further Arabeyes specific questions ?
[[BR]]16:17 <@nadim> abdo: do you have suggestions ?
[[BR]]16:17 <@kuru> abdo: I think LUG's are better suited for this.
[[BR]]16:17 < mako-sama> yes.. who's going to fill m.yousif's slot ? :)
[[BR]]16:18 <@nadim> abdo: we tried to start a PR group - but without people on the ground, that is very hard to do
[[BR]]16:18 <@kuru> abdo: but nadim would probably not agree with me completely.
[[BR]]16:18 < Uniball> A question: when are we going to c new faces into the core team ?
[[BR]]16:18 < phaeron> One : the arabic console which was supposed to be filled in by the bicon and something else but they seem very alpha
[[BR]]16:18 <@nadim> kuru: no, I agree - but continue to think we can pitch-in to better organize things
[[BR]]16:18 < phaeron> they need to fixed ASAP
[[BR]]16:18 < abdo> I realize LUGs are better suited, but the problem is LUGs dont exist except in few places like Egypt and Lebanon, we should get involved in their creation
[[BR]]16:18 <@yuyu> Uniball, bientot
[[BR]]16:18 <@nadim> phaeron: are you on the 'developer' mailing-list ?
[[BR]]16:18 <@kuru> Uniball: the elections are tentatively set to the first something in September.
[[BR]]16:19 -!- SeeKeR [~RooT@62.135.4.198] has quit [Connection timed out]
[[BR]]16:19 <@kuru> nadim: was it thursday?
[[BR]]16:19 <@yuyu> kuruyeah
[[BR]]16:19 < Uniball> yuyu: democracy ;)
[[BR]]16:19 <@nadim> kuru: huh ?
[[BR]]16:19 <@kuru> nadim: core elections
[[BR]]16:19 < phaeron> Two: UTF-8 support in X-lib is still incomplete
[[BR]]16:19 <@kuru> nadim: it was set to be on first thursday of sep. no?
[[BR]]16:19 -!- acidtears is now known as DJ-KING
[[BR]]16:19 <@nadim> kuru: ah, yeah something like that - its in CVS (the prelim thought on how to do it and when)
[[BR]]16:19 < alaa> concerning PR
[[BR]]16:20 <@nadim> alaa: go
[[BR]]16:20 <@kuru> Uniball: you can find all this info on cvs ae_admin/doc/ if I'm not mistaken
[[BR]]16:20 < alaa> there is a bit of PR that is better suited to a development project IMO
[[BR]]16:20 < phaeron> there was work done by arabeyes but it is incomplete
[[BR]]16:20 < alaa> that is PR among academic institutes
[[BR]]16:20 < Uniball> kuru heh, thanks
[[BR]]16:20 < alaa> they don't seem to like the idea of a LUG
[[BR]]16:20 < DJ-KING> hey room 
[[BR]]16:20 < alaa> based on our humble experience
[[BR]]16:20 <@kuru> alaa: who doesn't?
[[BR]]16:20 < Uniball> DJ-KING: hi
[[BR]]16:20 < abdo> alaa: and why not?
[[BR]]16:21 < alaa> kuru: universities and other academia organizations
[[BR]]16:21 <@kuru> ** 10 MINUTES to Pablo Saratxaga's SLOT **
[[BR]]16:21 < alaa> kuru: well at least here in egypt they put too much weight on credentials, I somehow think arabeyes can do better in this regard
[[BR]]16:21 <@kuru> alaa: in which case coordination between LUG's and Arabeyes is what might make a difference.
[[BR]]16:22 <@nadim> alaa: how to we penetrate that track though - don't we need people on the ground doing all that work, or can it be done remotely ?
[[BR]]16:22 <@kuru> alaa: many of the Arabeyes members are members of lugs in their respective countries
[[BR]]16:22 < alaa> kuru: yep
[[BR]]16:22 <@nadim> alaa: I had contacted 300 professors one time and sadly got 3 replies back
[[BR]]16:22 < alaa> nadim: not remotly no, lugs may establish first contacts
[[BR]]16:22 < olimar> I don't think PR is the real problem I think where to make PR and whom you want to target are the two main problems and I think there are too few ppl on the sites you'll make PR to get these ppl know about you and many of the ppl we want to target have to understand the idea of an Arabic PC first
[[BR]]16:22 <@nadim> alaa: 2 said "nice" and one said "I really want to help" - that was the extent of it
[[BR]]16:22 <@nadim> alaa: so how do we _really_ change that ?
[[BR]]16:22 < olimar> with the positive fact that as I saw many times ppl are open for the idea
[[BR]]16:23 < DJ-KING> nadim: your name means " Friend " right ?!
[[BR]]16:23 < olimar> but you need to make them now about the whole concept first IMHO and you need to find them... 
[[BR]]16:23 <@kuru> alaa: if a LUG would have one of its members represent the LUG and another represent Arabeyes (with that kind of approach to univ's etc. you might get more recognition where they don't understant LUG's)
[[BR]]16:23 < olimar> I think thos are they main concerns of an actual PR work and Arabeyes is not really suited for this
[[BR]]16:23 < alaa> nadim: but for instance I'm trying to lobby some profs to consider contributions to exisitng FOSS projects as adequate graduation projects, they don't trust to random prjects so if we can convince them arabeyes is '7aga mo7tarama'
[[BR]]16:23 -!- whirlpool [~mostafa@81.10.38.117] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]16:23 -!- bl4ckf0g [~ppp@195.226.237.48] has quit ["Leaving"]
[[BR]]16:23 < phaeron> nadim, sorry yes I subscribed as a developer but still didn't upload phaeronix
[[BR]]16:24 -!- Rocket_Lancher [Rocket_Lan@62.135.4.87] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]16:24 <@kuru> phaeron: what is phaeronix ?
[[BR]]16:24 <@nadim> alaa: we really want to help - but how ?
[[BR]]16:24 < Uniball> kuru phaeronix is a live distro based on LFS
[[BR]]16:24 < DJ-KING> kuru: an Egyptian Linux distru :) 
[[BR]]16:24 <@kuru> oh.. more distro's?
[[BR]]16:25 < phaeron> Uniball, thanx
[[BR]]16:25 < alaa> nadim: official sounding letters
[[BR]]16:25 < Uniball> kuru and you can install it on the hard drive too
[[BR]]16:25 <@nadim> alaa: hehe - that note what ?
[[BR]]16:25 < alaa> nadim: trying to participate in conferences
[[BR]]16:25 < Uniball> phaeron: No Problem
[[BR]]16:25 < phaeron> kuru, I hope to make it different
[[BR]]16:25 <@kuru> DJ-KING: Egytian Linux or Linux-Egypt or eglug or... too confusing
[[BR]]16:25 < Uniball> kuru it's all about freedom
[[BR]]16:25 <@kuru> I suggest you fork Egypt ;)
[[BR]]16:25 < phaeron> egypt`
[[BR]]16:25 <@kuru> phaeron: ehheh
[[BR]]16:25 <@nadim> alaa: again that requires physical presence in locations and/or travel (ie. expense)
[[BR]]16:25 < Uniball> alaa:  Edit Locale ;)
[[BR]]16:25 < olimar> more distros *~*
[[BR]]16:25 < alaa> nadim: well depends on the situation, I don't say I have something ready, just that arabeyes can be a comfort level if you decide to play the PR game
[[BR]]16:26 < olimar> Phaeron what about helping in Arabbix ;)
[[BR]]16:26 <@nadim> alaa: maybe with the bank account and a bit more focus on donations - maybe, we can make travel a reality at some point to attend conferences, etc.
[[BR]]16:26 < phaeron> olimar, I did look at it but I think I am beyond arrabix's status
[[BR]]16:26 < alaa> nadim: what is arabeyes position on seeking funding from foundations and large donors??
[[BR]]16:26 <@kuru> ** 4 MINUTES to Pablo Saratxaga's SLOT **
[[BR]]16:27 <@nadim> alaa: its all noted in our CVS :-)
[[BR]]16:27 <@nadim> alaa: we are open to the idea as long as strings are not attached (in brief :-)
[[BR]]16:27 <@kuru> alaa: we can't do it since we are not a legal entity (or rather _they_ can't donate to us because of that)
[[BR]]16:27 < olimar> phaeron, how?
[[BR]]16:27 <@nadim> kuru: that's their problem :-)
[[BR]]16:27 < alaa> kuru: hmm, how about individual grants
[[BR]]16:27 <@kuru> alaa: those would be noted in the docs in ae_admin/
[[BR]]16:28 <@kuru> nadim: Itold you this stuff should be up on wiki ;)
[[BR]]16:28 <@nadim> the whole issue of registering ourselves in an Arabic country has simply baffled people since we are a not-for-profit group - people hear that and simple stair at you :-)
[[BR]]16:28 <@kuru> https://gitlab.com/arabeyes-general/ae_admin/external/tree/docs/
[[BR]]16:28 < olimar> kuru, Arabeyes is not located in UAE I suppose are there laws in other countried which would give you that status?
[[BR]]16:28 < olimar> s
[[BR]]16:28 <@kuru> olimar: it's a lot more complicated than that
[[BR]]16:28 < phaeron> olimar, I mean I a few steps ahead of arabbix
[[BR]]16:28 <@nadim> alaa: I wouldn't say we're reject grants or donations - from our end we simply need to see the terms
[[BR]]16:29 < olimar> kuru, how?
[[BR]]16:29 <@nadim> phaeron: we still think it would be best to collaborate on one project
[[BR]]16:29 <@kuru> olimar: you usually need to have some individuals (more than one) physically available in one of the locations
[[BR]]16:29 <@kuru> olimar: it has to be in some country, UAE or otherwise
[[BR]]16:29 <@kuru> olimar: US attaches too many liabilities to it
[[BR]]16:29 < alaa> nadim: typicaly the terms would be focussed around a certain project with certain goals, you start by the goals and the project and find a donor that likes them
[[BR]]16:29 <@kuru> olimar: UAE don't even understand the concept
[[BR]]16:29 <@kuru> olimar: etc. etc.
[[BR]]16:30 <@kuru> olimar: you've been to dubai airport, need I say more? ;)
[[BR]]16:30 <@yuyu> olimar, if we had to register it in in france for ex, you need 2 ppl if I'm not mistaken
[[BR]]16:30 < alaa> nadim: you're free to use the money as you like as long as you report in details and don't use it outside the goals and the project you started with
[[BR]]16:30 < alaa> nadim: so the only strings attached are the strings you choose
[[BR]]16:30 <@yuyu> olimar, and i dont know any other arabeyer in france ...
[[BR]]16:30 <@kuru> alaa: how funds are used will be public knowledge
[[BR]]16:30 <@yuyu> so, time for mandrake ?
[[BR]]16:30 <@nadim> alaa: those all seem working things
[[BR]]16:30 < phaeron> nadim, Well my concept is diffrerent but maybe we can work out something
[[BR]]16:31 < abdo> so have we decided on a final place to register? is it going to be UAE?
[[BR]]16:31 <@nadim> alaa: we went to great length outlining various details in those docs in CVS - and they are not set in stone (yet :-)
[[BR]]16:31 <@kuru> Pablo is not here?
[[BR]]16:31 < srtxg> �$-1­ó®¤­ç®¥ Hello. I'm Pablo Saratxaga from Mandrakesoft
[[BR]]16:31 <@kuru> abdo: the UAE was the preferred option
[[BR]]16:31 <@yuyu> kuru: srtxg is pablo ;)
[[BR]]16:31 < olimar> kuru, please don't remember me...
[[BR]]16:31 <@nadim> phaeron: sure, I think we need to talk further later
[[BR]]16:31 < alaa> srtxg: we LOVE YOU
[[BR]]16:31 < abdo> good.
[[BR]]16:31 <@kuru> *** PABLO's SLOT **
[[BR]]16:31 <@nadim> kuru: silence the masses :-)
[[BR]]16:31 < srtxg> My work at Mandrakesoft is to make our distribution support as many languages as possible
[[BR]]16:31 < olimar> yuyu, we both live in Europe and I am sure there is some sort of european law so maybe we can do something about it
[[BR]]16:32 <@yuyu> srtxg, welcome ;)
[[BR]]16:32 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+v srtxg] by kuru
[[BR]]16:32 <+srtxg> That involves helping write locale definitions (sorting order, etc), packaging
[[BR]]16:32 <+srtxg> fonts, writting keyboard tables, finding translators; and merging all that
[[BR]]16:32 <+srtxg> together.
[[BR]]16:32 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+m] by kuru
[[BR]]16:32 <+srtxg> At our company we have always given special importance to the support of languages.
[[BR]]16:32 <+srtxg> Arabic support has came quite recently in GNU/Linux history, as arabic writting cumulates two difficulties: it's a bidi script, and it is a complex script (shapes change on context).
[[BR]]16:32 <+srtxg> That was frustrating for a while
[[BR]]16:33 <+srtxg> Now, thanks to the work done by Gtk and Qt toolkits, now most of the graphical programs have quite good support
[[BR]]16:33 -!- daif [daif@212.93.221.56] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]16:34 <+srtxg> There are still some things to improve, as people start using right-to-left environments (for example, the "next"/"previous" icons with arrows had to be reversed; something not a lot of people though before it started to show)
[[BR]]16:34 <+srtxg> Until recently the translations (of mandrakelinux tools) were done by independent individuals; then people from Arabeyes coordinated it and it improved even more.
[[BR]]16:34 <+srtxg> Big things missing for Arabic are, imho: better fonts, and a spell checker
[[BR]]16:35 <+srtxg> and also working terminal (console and X), but that is for more geekish people
[[BR]]16:35 <+srtxg>  
[[BR]]16:35 <+srtxg> OK; if you want to make questions...
[[BR]]16:35 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-m] by kuru
[[BR]]16:35 <@yuyu> cool. thanks for the presentation !
[[BR]]16:35 <@yuyu> srtxg, the spell checker
[[BR]]16:35 < alaa> srtxg: hi, let me start by saying I'm a mandrake zealot
[[BR]]16:35 <@yuyu> srtxg, there is one in preparation ;)
[[BR]]16:36 < munzir> srtxg: Welcome and thanks.
[[BR]]16:36 <+srtxg> That's good news. is it based on aspell?
[[BR]]16:36 <@yuyu> srtxg, the Duali spellchecker, developped by kuru ;)
[[BR]]16:36 < alaa> srtxg: but I was wondering if mandrake does test arabic support, or at least coordinate community testing (what was it called testzilla)
[[BR]]16:36 <+srtxg> A difficulty for an Arabic spell checker may be the vowels; there may be written or not...
[[BR]]16:36 < olimar> How does Mandrake see cooperation with other OSS groups like Arabeyes, is there any plan for tighter collaboration? support? Or making technology available?
[[BR]]16:36 < munzir> srtxg: regarding the next/previous button, you speak as if it was a problem. My resolution is that its a translation issue,wrong?
[[BR]]16:36 <@kuru> srtxg: no, it's fundamentally different, so it couldn't be. Stick around for 1430 UTC for more info on it if you like ;)
[[BR]]16:37 < alaa> srtxg: because sometimes stuff that worked in a version suddenly stops working in the next version, and we want to know how to help you guys avoid this
[[BR]]16:37 < olimar> munzir, no it's bugs in the toolkits and their libs
[[BR]]16:37 <+srtxg> the next/previous specifically is no more a problem; but some similar ones still are around sometimes
[[BR]]16:38 < olimar> in gnome many apps use libbonoboui and there a big bug is still makeing the UIs unusable
[[BR]]16:38 < olimar> is
[[BR]]16:38 < munzir> srtxg: are you speaking about the position of the buttons or the << and >> inside them?
[[BR]]16:38 < olimar> srtxg, How does Mandrake see cooperation with other OSS groups like Arabeyes, is there any plan for tighter collaboration? support? Or making technology available?
[[BR]]16:38 <+srtxg> As for mandrakelinux testing; we don't have the ressources to comprehensively test the arabic issues; that is why testing of cooker is important
[[BR]]16:38 < Uniball> srtxg: let me say, I respect you man, you are one of the best ppl out there, and btw, I'm not a mandrake user nor am i searching for a job :-)
[[BR]]16:38 < alaa> srtxg: ok but is it possible to somehow coordinate the tests, make test scripts etc
[[BR]]16:38 <+srtxg> munzir: both.
[[BR]]16:38 < alaa> srtxg: arabic community is still small and not very well organized
[[BR]]16:39 < olimar> alaa, I don't agree with it being not well organized
[[BR]]16:39 < alaa> olimar: I'm speaking of my local community and my self at least :-)
[[BR]]16:39 <+srtxg> alaa: we are indeed thinking (not only for arabic) to make language-recipes with things to test for a given language; so someone can look at the recipe and do the tests.
[[BR]]16:39 <@yuyu> hmm, cool
[[BR]]16:40 < alaa> srtxg: yeah something like that
[[BR]]16:40 < olimar> it's mall but we have good places like l4a good groups like Arabeyes and good lugs like the egypt lug for eg. and good companye like the tunisian opennet company etc... it's small but there
[[BR]]16:40 <+srtxg> We would indeed appreciate ideas on what details should be looked at for testing proper Arabic support
[[BR]]16:40 <@kuru> srtxg: one of my concerns is that some things cannot be done without being a Mandrake Club member (or that is my impression)
[[BR]]16:40 <@yuyu> srtxg, a technical question: what is preventing arabic from being in the installer ?
[[BR]]16:40 < munzir> srtxg: Some of the bugs Mandrake fixed in the past has revealed itself back because it's not ported back to the original componenets. This is not Mandrake's fault of course but how can we solve this
[[BR]]16:40 <@kuru> srtxg: is there anything specific that we (as a community) cannot do (in terms of helping to improve Mandrake's Arabic support) without the Club membership?
[[BR]]16:40 < alaa> srtxg: for instance there is the open office arabic doesn't work without plf freetype packages problem
[[BR]]16:41 <@yuyu> srtxg, i mean what is needed to have arabic in the installation process ?
[[BR]]16:41 <+srtxg> Being a mandrakeclub member gives access to the mandrakeclub site, and earlier access to iso's; but cooker and cvs is open for everyone
[[BR]]16:41 < olimar> srtxg, with the new model you seem to put big emphasis on cooker how does the mandrake Club model will still work for testers ? (to extend kurus Q)
[[BR]]16:41 <+srtxg> and also, regular contributors get club membership
[[BR]]16:41 < Uniball> srtxg: yes, we  have to install libfreetype with the truetype byte interpreter enabled for OOo to be able to render arabic correctly
[[BR]]16:42 < olimar> still making a bonus system is not healthy for building a community?
[[BR]]16:42 < munzir> srtxg: the yesno expr for example at http://qa.mandrakesoft.com/show_bug.cgi?id=6482 You solved it and now in 10.1 alpha I can see it again!
[[BR]]16:42 < Uniball> just clarifying what alaa saied
[[BR]]16:42 <+srtxg> yuyu: the font has to be copied into the CD; other languages are missing it too; it will be done for 10.1
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[[BR]]16:42 <@yuyu> srtxg, i see. no technical issues like bidi or something ?
[[BR]]16:43 <+srtxg> olimar: Mandrakeclub is not for testers; it is for users (that may test), and to give them some advantages.
[[BR]]16:43 < cuco> srtxg, you said that back in the days of 9.2
[[BR]]16:43 <@yuyu> srtxg, so with the font, arabic should be available at installation, right ?
[[BR]]16:43 <+srtxg> olimar: testing is (and has always been) on cooker
[[BR]]16:43 < olimar> for eg.
[[BR]]16:44 < isam> Hi all
[[BR]]16:44 <@yuyu> isam, salam & welcome
[[BR]]16:44 < olimar> I became a member of Arabeyes and I want to work from time to time on some mdk pos
[[BR]]16:44 <+srtxg> yuyu: no; the installer problem is not technical; it's time (but it'll be done)
[[BR]]16:44 < olimar> how can I do this ? And is there any type of support I get from MDK?
[[BR]]16:44 < isam> roblimo, telling everyone about my blush :) shame on you 
[[BR]]16:45 < olimar> Salam isam
[[BR]]16:45 <@nadim> srtxg: thank you for your presentation and time - its really appreciated -- one thing to note from reading the above, it does look like we need to better organize the Arabic testing of alpha releases, so maybe we can (off-line) talk about that in a seperate session (I'm saying this to bring an important point to resolution :-)
[[BR]]16:45 <@yuyu> srtxg, cool :-) so hopefully 10.1 then ;)
[[BR]]16:45 < munzir> srtxg: I tested 10.1 and the installer problem is still there.
[[BR]]16:45 <+srtxg> For translation of PO mandrakesoft only iteracts with arabeyes; so you has to ask arabeyes to help
[[BR]]16:45 < munzir> It's prayer time now...
[[BR]]16:45 < isam> I am glad that everyone is here
[[BR]]16:45 < isam> munzir, how are you doing
[[BR]]16:46 <@kuru> isam: thanks for putting a blurb abot the party on l4a
[[BR]]16:46 < olimar> I think, more coordination btw Mandrake and Arabeyes has to happen as, as srtxg said, a main point is that MDK ONLY works with Arabeyes and second there are some open points which the MDK ppl want to get done like testing etc...
[[BR]]16:46 <@yuyu> olimar, want to translate some POs ? i have work for ya ;)
[[BR]]16:46 < olimar> ;)
[[BR]]16:46 <+srtxg> nadim: yes, it could help if there were a current cooker version regularly checked so any introduced problem could be reported
[[BR]]16:46 < daif> isam, salam
[[BR]]16:46 < olimar> Well till I finish getting gnome translation on the road first ;)
[[BR]]16:46 <@yuyu> olimar, arabeyes is already coordinating the translation of mdk pos
[[BR]]16:46 < olimar> then I'll switch
[[BR]]16:47 < isam> kuru, you are very welcome .. I just learned 3 hours ago about it :)
[[BR]]16:47 <@nadim> srtxg: we'll see what we can do from our side and get back to you - we're likely to ask someone to volunteer to be the coordinator for just such tasks/jobs
[[BR]]16:47 < isam> kuru, no one invited me :)
[[BR]]16:47 < abdo> olimar: your trying to get away from working on Deb?
[[BR]]16:47 < isam> daif, Salam
[[BR]]16:47 <@kuru> isam: you are on the announce list, no? no? <gasp /> your fault ;)
[[BR]]16:47 <@kuru> srtxg: then I had the wrong impression
[[BR]]16:47 < olimar> yuyu & srtxg, is there any po coordinator hos coordinating the work of the different groups under mdk translation? Like in gnome?
[[BR]]16:47 <+srtxg> For PO translations; either there is a coordinator (like for Arabic) and we interact only with him; or there isn't. It is harder for us when there isn't a coordinator; but some languages have too few (human) ressources
[[BR]]16:47 <@nadim> isam: make sure you are on the 'announce' list :-)
[[BR]]16:47 < isam> kuru, I am not in the announce list
[[BR]]16:48 < olimar> abdo, no I'll do both!
[[BR]]16:48 < isam> nadim, I missed that :)
[[BR]]16:48 < olimar> deb and mdk ;P
[[BR]]16:48 <@yuyu> olimar, srtxg is the coordinator ;)
[[BR]]16:48 < olimar> Ah ok
[[BR]]16:48 <@yuyu> olimar, i mean for the whole mdk trsnaltrion
[[BR]]16:48 < olimar> so back to srtxg, what do you think is missing from Arabeyes to get even better support?
[[BR]]16:49 <@nadim> srtxg: what should we, as a community, expect from MDK in the years to come - anything specific being concentrated on ?
[[BR]]16:49 < Uniball> i thought i18n not translation
[[BR]]16:49 <@yuyu> olimar, read his presentaion again ;)
[[BR]]16:49 <+srtxg> olimar: coordinating the different languages? it's me.
[[BR]]16:49 <@nadim> olimar: I dig your question :-)
[[BR]]16:49 < olimar> yuyu ,he spoke about testing but is there more?
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[[BR]]16:49 < olimar> nadim, ;)
[[BR]]16:50 <@nadim> olimar: the "what is missing from Arabeyes" one - brilliant :-)
[[BR]]16:50 <+srtxg> As I said; imho the most missing things are better fonts (it's easy to find freely usable latin or cyrillic fonts, more difficult for arabic script) and a spell checker
[[BR]]16:50 < olimar> ic
[[BR]]16:50 <@yuyu> srtxg, i think both issues are worked on 
[[BR]]16:50 <@kuru> srtxg: I believe munzir has/is created(ing) an rpm with a bundle of Arabeyes ttf fonts
[[BR]]16:50 <+srtxg> It is being worked, so it's good news (please, when creating fonts, don't limit to only Arabic, but also include glyphs for other languages using arabic script; the usefulness of the font will be greater)
[[BR]]16:51 < olimar> nadim, thanx!
[[BR]]16:51 <@nadim> srtxg: true - we have fonts as a priority, Arabeyes' Khotot project should see some new fonts in the not too distant future
[[BR]]16:51 < olimar> srtxg, good point about the fonts
[[BR]]16:51 <@kuru> srtxg: we try to -- but given that our resources when it comes to fonts are limited, we try to concentrate on Arabic as a priority and Arabic based script glyphs as a secondary issue.
[[BR]]16:52 < olimar> I also think that we have to provide fonts for the Arabic script as it is used today, not only fonts for Arabic speaking ppl
[[BR]]16:52 <@yuyu> olimar, ?
[[BR]]16:52 <+srtxg> kuru: I understand it; however a lot of glyphs differ only by the number of dots on top or below the letter; they could be automatically composed
[[BR]]16:52 <@nadim> yuyu: ie. include farsi for instance
[[BR]]16:52 < olimar> yuyu, for eg. the hindi arabic fonts there are some fonts who have arabic shapes but three points on the "ha" for eg.
[[BR]]16:53 < olimar> i think this has to be included in a font pack
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[[BR]]16:53 <@yuyu> olimar, yeah. those should be in the fonts anyway
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[[BR]]16:53 < olimar> yep
[[BR]]16:53 <@nadim> yuyu: actually they currently aren't
[[BR]]16:53 <@yuyu> nadim, i knoiw ;)
[[BR]]16:53 <@nadim> at least hte fonts that I've worked on - since I never got a list of the missing farsi glyphs
[[BR]]16:54 <+srtxg> Another thing that would be very useful: a presentation of Arabic (script) on computer needs; for a public completly ignorant of what it involves (eg: for the typical US/EU developper) so it helps him to avoid some choices that make it harder for poper arabic support
[[BR]]16:54 <@nadim> but its a very valid point nonetheless
[[BR]]16:54 <@yuyu> srtxg, good suggestion !
[[BR]]16:54 <+srtxg> There was once such a document on the internet; but I has been unable to find it again :-(
[[BR]]16:54 <@nadim> srtxg: what do you mean "presentation of Arabic (script)" ?
[[BR]]16:54 < olimar> srtxg, VERY good point indeed!!! reminds of my struggling with the evo ppl about rtl support, one of their arguments was that they don't understand anything about rtl
[[BR]]16:55 <@yuyu> hehehe
[[BR]]16:55 <+srtxg> nadim: that the needs for an Arabic computer environmment are not unique to Arabic, but to all Arabic script languages
[[BR]]16:55 <@nadim> would't unicode's TR#9 and their codechart be sufficient ?
[[BR]]16:55 <@yuyu> srtxg, btw here's the khotot project page https://www.arabeyes.org/Khotot [fonts]
[[BR]]16:56 <@yuyu> srtxg, and the duali project page https://www.arabeyes.org/Duali [spell checker]
[[BR]]16:56 <+srtxg> nadim: does it talk about thinks like the palcement of buttons, the shadows of widgets in the pseudo-3D model, etc?
[[BR]]16:56 <@kuru> srtxg: obviously not.
[[BR]]16:56 <+srtxg> yuyu: thanks
[[BR]]16:56 <@kuru> srtxg: it simply talks about the algorithm.
[[BR]]16:57 <@kuru> srtxg: point taken
[[BR]]16:57 < olimar> if someone is taking minutes pls write down, I liked the points srtxg mentioned
[[BR]]16:57 <@yuyu> srtxg, i remmber seeing a doc on the web abouth the subject, maybe it was the one you were referring to it. i dont have the link either
[[BR]]16:57 <@nadim> srtxg: noted
[[BR]]16:57 <@yuyu> the bidi algoprithm
[[BR]]16:57 <+srtxg> The bidi and shaping problems are not much of a problem nowadays (high level toolkits make it an abstraction); the issue is on more upper levels.
[[BR]]16:57 <@nadim> yuyu: I've never seen anything on this topic :-)
[[BR]]16:58 <@yuyu> nadim, i did ;) i should have bokkmarked it 
[[BR]]16:58 <@nadim> srtxg: so the actual user interface and expectations is what you're notin, right ?
[[BR]]16:58 <@nadim> yuyu: google for it later :-)
[[BR]]16:58 < mako-sama> i think i read that few weeks ago... not sure if i saved it or not
[[BR]]16:58 <+srtxg> That was the doc that made me realize the newt/previous issue with the arrows. Something obvious once you think at it; but not obvious at all when you don't speak a bidi language and haven't tough of the problem before
[[BR]]16:58 <+srtxg> nadim: yes.
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[[BR]]16:59 <@kuru> srtxg: I've come across this document in the past
[[BR]]16:59 <@kuru> srtxg: but it's rather outdated even if we were to find it
[[BR]]16:59 <@kuru> srtxg: a new one needs to be written
[[BR]]16:59 <@nadim> damn - I seem to have completely missed it ;-)
[[BR]]16:59 <@yuyu> hehehe. seems like everybody read it and no one saved it ;)
[[BR]]16:59 <@nadim> hehe
[[BR]]16:59 <@kuru> nadim: that's what happens when you spend endless hours creating fonts ;)
[[BR]]16:59 < olimar> srtxg, the problem is very complex in gnome as every app uses some libs and some external code to draw bars, panes and panels and the real problem is that devs are not aware of the problem and even if they are they don't know how to solve it
[[BR]]17:00 < olimar> internal code I mean
[[BR]]17:00 <@nadim> since M.Yousif noted that he won't come - we have a bit of time if that is needed
[[BR]]17:00 < munzir> srtxg: I have already created the rpms for fonts and submitted it to the incomming directory of Mandrake, haven't you found it?
[[BR]]17:00 <@yuyu> man, we should make the party span over 24 hours next year ;) 3à minutes are short !
[[BR]]17:01 <@yuyu> s/3à/30
[[BR]]17:01 <@nadim> 15 more minutes are up for grabs if Mr. srtxg agrees
[[BR]]17:01 < olimar> still I think, besides these wonderful suggestions you made MDK has to go towards the communities too and make communities play a bigger role in the whole dev process
[[BR]]17:01 <+srtxg> There are some widgets that must be mirrored, and some that must not (for example the config panel of a game, with the definition of the direction keys; it must not be mirrored!)
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[[BR]]17:01 <@kuru> *** PABLO's SLOT OVER ***
[[BR]]17:01 < abdo> yuyu: you gotta be kidding me! :)
[[BR]]17:01 < munzir> ftp://ftp.linux-mandrake.com/incoming ;)
[[BR]]17:01 < munzir> fonts-ttf-arabic-kacst-1.6.3-1mdk.src.rpm
[[BR]]17:01 < munzir> fonts-ttf-arabic-arabeyes-1.1-1mdk.src.rpm
[[BR]]17:01 < munzir> fonts-ttf-arabic-farsi-0.4-1mdk.src.rpm
[[BR]]17:01 <@yuyu> abdo, no i'm not ;)
[[BR]]17:01 <@kuru> *** Free Form Begins ***
[[BR]]17:01 < olimar> yuyu, what about getting Arabeyes as non profit org here in Europe?
[[BR]]17:02 < alaa> srtxg: one of our members packaged the arabeyes english-arabic dictionary in dict format, submitted it to cooker but got no response
[[BR]]17:02 < olimar> I can go and ask, kuru what do you think?
[[BR]]17:02 <@kuru> olimar: there need to be at least 2 individuals (management level) physically present as a minimum in most places
[[BR]]17:02 <@kuru> olimar: but finding info is not going to hurt ;)
[[BR]]17:02 <@yuyu> olimar, i prospected, but was a headache to do in .fr
[[BR]]17:02 < olimar> well I and yuyu are present
[[BR]]17:02 < abdo> olimar, yuyu, if it has to an Arabic country we register in I dont know why .lb wasnt considered. non-profit organizations are everywhere here.
[[BR]]17:03 <@yuyu> olimar, again, i know no other arabeyes in france
[[BR]]17:03 < Uniball> i was attending a workshop organized by mengos.NET, someone asked me, do we have a spell and grammar "what do you call it" checker for Arabic under linux ?
[[BR]]17:03 < abdo> not to mention no one will be too curious and nosy about what your doing
[[BR]]17:03 <@kuru> srtxg: _THANK_ you very much for your time.
[[BR]]17:03 <@yuyu> s/arabeyes/arabeyesers
[[BR]]17:03 < Uniball> i answered her that it's still under development
[[BR]]17:03 <+srtxg> alaa: I'll look at it.
[[BR]]17:03 < Uniball> and that the spell checker is being worked on
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[[BR]]17:03 <+srtxg> Thank you all
[[BR]]17:03 < munzir> srtxg: After this war let may say congratulations for your new-born daughter
[[BR]]17:03 < olimar> yuyu, I think that here some sort of european law applies and as we both are citizens of the EU we can file something in this regard
[[BR]]17:03 <@nadim> srtxg: we again _THANK_ you deeply for your time and all your continued hard work !!
[[BR]]17:03 <@kuru> srtxg: It is no secret, you are one of the favorites among the different distro coordinators (regardless of what distro everyone uses)
[[BR]]17:03 < Uniball> kuru since you are the duali guy, any plans for a grammar thing ?
[[BR]]17:04 < olimar> srtxg thank you too!
[[BR]]17:04 < munzir> srtxg: also thanks for your famous detailed replies ;)
[[BR]]17:04 <@kuru> Uniball: ask later ;)
[[BR]]17:04 <@kuru> Uniball: plan yes, but long ter
[[BR]]17:04 < olimar> kuru, I'll go and ask!
[[BR]]17:04 <@kuru> s/ter/term
[[BR]]17:04 < Uniball> srtxg: you are the guy to be thanked
[[BR]]17:04 <@yuyu> olimar, i'm not a EU citizen btw ;)
[[BR]]17:04 < olimar> ah really?
[[BR]]17:04 < olimar> oh well
[[BR]]17:04 < olimar> hmm
[[BR]]17:05 < Uniball> kuru i'm asking nw not later, it seems that this is a must, Can we coordinate this ? I may be able to try and work on it
[[BR]]17:05 < olimar> Ah!
[[BR]]17:05 < olimar> I'll simply ask my father ;)
[[BR]]17:05 <@kuru> Uniball: sure.
[[BR]]17:05 <@nadim> Uniball: I think the license stopped you before :-)
[[BR]]17:05 < olimar> he has only to write down his name! And become member of the core team HAHA
[[BR]]17:05 < olimar> my father member of the core team ;)
[[BR]]17:05 <@yuyu> olimar, but i dont think that youy need to be a EU citizen to register anything (not in .fr anyway)
[[BR]]17:06 <@kuru> nadim: he's been secretly loving bsd licenses, don't make him have to give his public rhetoric ;)
[[BR]]17:06 < Uniball> nadim: yes, but if i'll write the thing, I'll choose the license
[[BR]]17:06 <@nadim> hehe
[[BR]]17:06 <@nadim> good-man :-)
[[BR]]17:06 <@kuru> Uniball: I wouldn't incorporate it then ;)
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[[BR]]17:06 <+srtxg> Oh, a grammar corrector is indeed a much needed thing; for ALL languages. If someone has ides he should contact the mantainer of aspell, who is thinking about it (or should redirect to people tthinking about it)
[[BR]]17:06 <@kuru> Uniball: seriously, I wouldn't.
[[BR]]17:06 < Uniball> kuru incorporate it where ?
[[BR]]17:06 <@kuru> Uniball: with duali
[[BR]]17:06 < olimar> well I really don't have any idea I'll go and ask, still we are now two living in the EU and I am to 99% sure that in these cases EU law applies so maybe there is some sort of solution for this
[[BR]]17:07 < Uniball> kuru so don't
[[BR]]17:07 < alaa> hehe license flamewar
[[BR]]17:07 <@nadim> srtxg: unfortunately aspell is not much of an option for us
[[BR]]17:07 < munzir> isam: how are you?
[[BR]]17:07 <@kuru> alaa: ;)
[[BR]]17:07 < Uniball> kuru a spell checker can be separated from the grammar checker with no big problem
[[BR]]17:07 <@nadim> srtxg: we contacted the author and didn't get anywhere so that's why duali was born
[[BR]]17:07 < alaa> Uniball: grammar checker is exactly the kind of thing that should be GPLed IMO, since its a piece missing even in the propritary stack
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[[BR]]17:07 <@kuru> Uniball: I'll do it MS style ;)
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[[BR]]17:08 < alaa> Uniball: so by making a GPL version (if you make a good one) you're giving reluctant people a big incentive to develop free software
[[BR]]17:08 < mako-sama> alaa: there are commercial grammar checkers
[[BR]]17:08 < Uniball> kuru i'm serious ;)
[[BR]]17:08 < olimar> kuru will bundle the grammar checker with pcitures of bill gates in his pool and distribute them for free and it'll get a rush like in W95 days...
[[BR]]17:08 <@kuru> Uniball: do as you wish, I don't own you (yet) ;)
[[BR]]17:08 < Uniball> alaa: yes, agree and i'm with you regarding this point
[[BR]]17:08 <@kuru> olimar: hehehehe
[[BR]]17:08 <@nadim> ok, onto the next item on the schedule ?
[[BR]]17:08 < Uniball> kuru youll never
[[BR]]17:08 <@nadim> 13:00 - 13:30    Mostafa/Alaa           (Egypt LUG)
[[BR]]17:08 < alaa> mako-sama: I know but nor common APIs, and the arabic ones I saw where bad
[[BR]]17:09 <@kuru> Uniball: heheheh.. 
[[BR]]17:09 < olimar> ;)
[[BR]]17:09 < alaa> oh our slot now
[[BR]]17:09 <@nadim> talking about liceses won't get us anywhere - and _not_ now :-)
[[BR]]17:09 <@yuyu> srtxg, really thank you for coming. we really appreciate it :-)
[[BR]]17:09 < olimar> nadim will someone of the Egpt LUG come?
[[BR]]17:09 < alaa> whirlpool: you do the presentation
[[BR]]17:09 < mako-sama> alaa: i havn't seen any arabic grammer checker, although i know they exist
[[BR]]17:09 < Uniball> whirlpool: wake up
[[BR]]17:09 <@nadim> olimar: hehe - they're all around you :-)
[[BR]]17:09 <@kuru> *** Mostafa/Alaa           (Egypt LUG) ***
[[BR]]17:09 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-m] by kuru
[[BR]]17:09 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+m] by kuru
[[BR]]17:09 -!- A[D]minS [~ADminS@81.10.10.181] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]17:09 <+srtxg> mako-sama: no grammar checker in free software exists
[[BR]]17:10 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+v alaa] by kuru
[[BR]]17:10 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-v srtxg] by kuru
[[BR]]17:10 <+alaa> hmm
[[BR]]17:10 <@nadim> kuru: I think whirlpool is supposed to present :-)
[[BR]]17:10 <+alaa> I'm not realy prepared
[[BR]]17:10 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+v whirlpool] by kuru
[[BR]]17:10 <@yuyu> whi is whirlpool ?
[[BR]]17:10 <@yuyu> s/whi/who
[[BR]]17:10 <+alaa> I'll improvise until whirlpool shows up then
[[BR]]17:10 <@nadim> we'll soon find out
[[BR]]17:10 <@yuyu> hehe
[[BR]]17:10 <+alaa> hello folks, as you may know we founded a new egyptian lug
[[BR]]17:11 <+alaa>  eglug.org
[[BR]]17:11 <+whirlpool> hello, people we come to you from eglug.org
[[BR]]17:11 <+alaa> ah /me shut up now
[[BR]]17:11 <+alaa> whirlpool: your show
[[BR]]17:11 <+whirlpool> alaa, no continue.
[[BR]]17:11 <@yuyu> :-)
[[BR]]17:12 <+alaa> ok so we founded this new LUG
[[BR]]17:12 <+alaa> we're trying to turn it into a hyper active community
[[BR]]17:12 <+alaa> our focus is not only on free tech support, but we try to be proactive in advocating and promoting FOSS in Egypt
[[BR]]17:13 <+alaa> and we're trying to do it right from the start, we give much thought to process and procedure
[[BR]]17:13 <+alaa> we try to be as democratic as humanly possible
[[BR]]17:13 <+alaa> all in all its an interesting experiment
[[BR]]17:13 <+alaa> so far we've organized a series of activities
[[BR]]17:13 <+alaa> in the sakia cultural center
[[BR]]17:14 <+alaa> we did something we call "DO OR DIE"
[[BR]]17:14 <+alaa> which is where we put a bunch on members in a locked room, and they don't go out until they finish a certain task
[[BR]]17:14 <+alaa> we translated the "From PowerUp to bash prompt" HOWTO this way
[[BR]]17:14 -!- manal_ [~manal@62.135.86.19] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]17:14 <+alaa> and we wrote a bunch of free game reviews in a "PLAY OR DIE SESSION"
[[BR]]17:15 <+alaa> we did some short training sessions
[[BR]]17:15 <+alaa> and starting from next sunday we'll be giving weekly courses for GNU/Linux nn00bs
[[BR]]17:15 <+alaa> and we're happy to say demand for the courses is very high
[[BR]]17:16 <+alaa> finaly we go around the country in various events to speek about FOSS and GNU/Linux (and mention arabeyes whenever we can)
[[BR]]17:16 <+alaa> we got more grand plans, and you can learn all about it from our website http://www.eglug.org
[[BR]]17:16  * alaa done
[[BR]]17:17 <@yuyu> cool. you seem to be having a lot of fun there :-)
[[BR]]17:17 <@kuru> alaa: handing over to whirlpool or ready for questions?
[[BR]]17:17 <+alaa> whirlpool: you got something you want to add?
[[BR]]17:17 <+whirlpool> yes
[[BR]]17:17 <+alaa> yuyu: yep LOADS of fun
[[BR]]17:17 <@yuyu> ah. sorry.
[[BR]]17:17 <+alaa> whirlpool: go ahead, and please mention our advert :-)
[[BR]]17:18 <+whirlpool> well, just to mention that we lock people in 4x6 room in the "Do or Die" as a intresting experiment.
[[BR]]17:18 <+alaa> whirlpool: you're over estimating the size of the room
[[BR]]17:19 <+whirlpool> :-) Best thing is that things are going on in a very friendly manner. We even had a fun video advertisement that we recorded with a cheap sony camera. 
[[BR]]17:19 <+alaa> http://www.eglug.org/advert 
[[BR]]17:20 <+whirlpool> And we are also participating in events that adress the civil society and NGO's in general to spread the word of FOSS in that area
[[BR]]17:21 <+whirlpool> kuru, Q&A now
[[BR]]17:21 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-m] by kuru
[[BR]]17:21 < Uniball> I want to state that one of the reasons to fork and create a new lug was that the old lug founder and admins wanted to work in a secret way without announcing, even me as a moderator didn't know most of the things behind the scene. And we were not able to force them to be more open. It seems that they are prefaring the cathedral style than the bazar style. That's it and thanks for reading.
[[BR]]17:21 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-v whirlpool] by kuru
[[BR]]17:21 <+alaa> ok bring them on
[[BR]]17:21 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-v alaa] by kuru
[[BR]]17:22 < abdo> I have a few questions.
[[BR]]17:22 <@yuyu> Uniball, hehe, you were prepatring that paragprah while alla and whirlpool were talking ? ;)
[[BR]]17:22 < alaa> abdo: go ahead
[[BR]]17:22 < Uniball> yuyu: ;)
[[BR]]17:22 <@nadim> thank you gents for your intro - but what the language were you using in that advert :-)
[[BR]]17:22 < alaa> nadim: egyptian
[[BR]]17:22 <@yuyu> nadim, ehehee
[[BR]]17:22 < DJ-KING> nadim: pure egyptian 
[[BR]]17:22 <@nadim> s/the//
[[BR]]17:22 < whirlpool> nadim, lol
[[BR]]17:22 <@kuru> it sure as hell beats that silly thing le did.
[[BR]]17:22 < abdo> alright, just how big is your LUG in terms of membership? I just want to know if its proportional to a big country like egypt
[[BR]]17:22 < Uniball> nadim: egyptian words, I think that kuru posted a translation @ fakkir.net
[[BR]]17:22 < alaa> abdo: our lug is only 1 month old
[[BR]]17:22 < abdo> second of all, what range of skills do your members have?
[[BR]]17:23 < alaa> abdo: and we're yet to truely promote it
[[BR]]17:23 <@nadim> whirlpool: you should include people's name in the advert so we all know who is who :-)
[[BR]]17:23 < olimar> whirlpool, you had that big linux event which was even mentioned on /. it was indeed a big success, I have many Qs about it
[[BR]]17:23 < Uniball> nadim: even me ? ;)
[[BR]]17:23 < alaa> abdo: so far we have roughly 40 somewhat active members, around 20 can be relied upon
[[BR]]17:23 < abdo> third, do you have educational ventures? do you give lectures in Egyptian schools/enivirsities?
[[BR]]17:23 -!- zink_ [~fletch@82.152.43.224] has quit ["leaving"]
[[BR]]17:23 < whirlpool> olimar, yes
[[BR]]17:23 < abdo> thats it, thanks :)
[[BR]]17:23 < alaa> abdo: but the website has a much larger membership 100+
[[BR]]17:23 < whirlpool> olimar, ask
[[BR]]17:23 <@nadim> Uniball: you we know :-)
[[BR]]17:23 < olimar> first how much do you think do ppl know about Linux and FOSS?
[[BR]]17:23 <@yuyu> i think it is very intersting to be a group. working and having fun with those DoD sessions ;-)
[[BR]]17:23 < olimar> I mena Arabic ppl and egyptians specifically
[[BR]]17:24 < Uniball> abdo: we try to go and give siminars about GNU/Linux and opensource whenever we can find a chanse
[[BR]]17:24 <@yuyu> via the internet it's not possible (or hard) to do such things..
[[BR]]17:24  * DJ-KING is the guy with the Cigi,
[[BR]]17:24 <@kuru> DJ-KING: you are my favorite character ;)
[[BR]]17:24 < alaa> abdo: we do give seminars or presentations in univs
[[BR]]17:24 < abdo> Uniball: how often, and how many have you done already?
[[BR]]17:24 < olimar> Did they knew what is running there? Or was it their first contact with Linux and OSS in general?
[[BR]]17:24 < DJ-KING> kuru: heheh , thanks , that gives me great pleasure :) 
[[BR]]17:24 < alaa> abdo: but courses are a new thing
[[BR]]17:25 < Uniball> alaa: how many ? 4 ? or more ?
[[BR]]17:25 < alaa> abdo: we're only doing them in the sakia cultural center, but we're discussing with a bunch of NGOs
[[BR]]17:25 < Uniball> language engineering conference
[[BR]]17:25 < Uniball> zagazig, ITI
[[BR]]17:25 < Uniball> i think more
[[BR]]17:25 < alaa> Uniball: 4 sounds right
[[BR]]17:25 <@yuyu> alaa, does the lug include poeple from outside cairo ?
[[BR]]17:25 <@nadim> whirlpool: I gotta say you guys seem to be the funnest LUG around :-)  A couple of serious questions - what has been the one thing that if you could change with regard to your LUG, you would ?  ie. what would make it more successful ?
[[BR]]17:26 < Uniball> yuyu: yes, we have ppl from alex, maybe 3
[[BR]]17:26 < alaa> nadim: we changed all the things we don't like in our new lug
[[BR]]17:26 < alaa> nadim: but if we can get more active people, less sabotage attempts from IBM and some money it would be great
[[BR]]17:26 <@nadim> alaa: so the new lug is perfect ? ;-)
[[BR]]17:26 -!- robertoramsis [~BelieVe@217.52.244.1] has quit ["Leaving"]
[[BR]]17:26 < alaa> yuyu: yes it does include people from outside cairo
[[BR]]17:26 <@yuyu> any plans to coordinate with other Arabic LUGs (or any existing coordination) ?
[[BR]]17:27 < alaa> yuyu: we have a string alex presence and some of our best are from zagazig
[[BR]]17:27 < whirlpool> olimar, there is a lot of people who heard about linux as an alternative OS and that it might be powerfull and so on but very few would know about its philos. as i might think people would switch if they do appreciate the foss idea
[[BR]]17:27 < daif> NewNews:   http://www.daif.net/klinux
[[BR]]17:27 < alaa> nadim: well its only been a month, all problems so far are with the small numbers and lack of punctuality
[[BR]]17:27 < alaa> nadim: which is typical in egypt
[[BR]]17:27 -!- Lordveda [~habdin@81.10.16.221] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]17:27 <@yuyu> alaa, sorry;, i dont know if zagazig is a city or is a cairo suburb ;)
[[BR]]17:27 < whirlpool> olimar, lots of people in the installfest wanted to see linux running and touch it fiddle with it. lots of misconceptions exist in the win techy area
[[BR]]17:28 < alaa> yuyu: well we're oprn to cooperation, but no idea about how we can coordinate and on what
[[BR]]17:28 < Uniball> yuyu: it's a capital for ....... what do you call it ?
[[BR]]17:28 <@nadim> alaa: in your presentations and talks - do you see a common thread by which we, remotely, can help with ?
[[BR]]17:28 <@yuyu> Uniball, hehe, what ?
[[BR]]17:28 < Uniball> mo7afza
[[BR]]17:28 <@yuyu> ah
[[BR]]17:28 < Uniball> yuyu: part ? section ? of the country ?
[[BR]]17:28 < Lordveda> kaifak ya medini?
[[BR]]17:28 <@yuyu> Uniball, close to cairo ?
[[BR]]17:28 < whirlpool> nadim, the fork. We didn't want to fork. We were forced to. If we didn't fork we would have an instantly large member base from the start
[[BR]]17:29 <@nadim> Uniball: county
[[BR]]17:29 < olimar> ic and did you have stations running Arabized linux software or demoing Arabiclinux software?
[[BR]]17:29 < Uniball> yuyu: province i think
[[BR]]17:29 < Lordveda> medini
[[BR]]17:29 < whirlpool> yuyu, install xrmap and search for zagazig ;-)
[[BR]]17:29 < olimar> for eg. gnome running in Arabic or Katoob etc...
[[BR]]17:29 <@yuyu> hehe
[[BR]]17:29 < Uniball> nadim: province
[[BR]]17:29 < alaa> nadim: hmmm 
[[BR]]17:29 < Lordveda> olimar: you ignoring me?
[[BR]]17:29 <@yuyu> ok, sorry for the silly question :)
[[BR]]17:29 < Lordveda> Salamo 3alaikom
[[BR]]17:29 < alaa> nadim: people still worry about arabic support, we need more devs and more testers
[[BR]]17:29 <@yuyu> Lordveda, salam
[[BR]]17:30 < Uniball> olimar: i didn't get the question 
[[BR]]17:30 <@nadim> Lordveda: salam - do please concentrate on the presentations and talks
[[BR]]17:30 < alaa> nadim: and as I said when trying to convince academic istitutes to participate they demand a respectable entity 
[[BR]]17:30 <@nadim> alaa: with most of us not being there - what do you envision needing help with ?
[[BR]]17:30 < alaa> nadim: I don't know if arabeyes wants to be that
[[BR]]17:30 < Uniball> nadim: don't try with Lordveda
[[BR]]17:30 < olimar> Lord? uh why?
[[BR]]17:31 < alaa> ah this is too difficult for me, I'm still 100 lines above
[[BR]]17:31 < olimar> Lord Salam
[[BR]]17:31 <@nadim> alaa: arabeyes does - but we need tangibles on how to proceed
[[BR]]17:31 -!- Jad [~Jad@63.218.55.173] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]17:31 < olimar> Ah well I wasn't look at the chat window ;) Salam Lord sure I am medini ;)
[[BR]]17:31 < olimar> looking
[[BR]]17:31 < olimar> Uniball I mean
[[BR]]17:31 <@nadim> whirlpool: another grand question
[[BR]]17:31 < olimar> when you were showing Linux to the ppl
[[BR]]17:31 < Uniball> alaa: that's y i'm helping you ;)
[[BR]]17:32 < alaa> nadim: well I don't realy know, official entity is a good start
[[BR]]17:32 Jad [~Jad@63.218.55.173] requested CTCP VERSION from #arabeyes: 
[[BR]]17:32 < whirlpool> nadim, go ahead
[[BR]]17:32 < olimar> where there some stations running an Arabic GUI and/or Arabic software?
[[BR]]17:32 <@nadim> whirlpool/alaa/uniball - any thoughts on cooperating with other Arabic LUGs ?
[[BR]]17:32 < CVirus_Sakia> huh ?
[[BR]]17:32 < CVirus_Sakia> um here
[[BR]]17:32 < alaa> nadim: any concrete suggestions
[[BR]]17:32 < CVirus_Sakia> sup dudes ??!!!
[[BR]]17:32 < Uniball> olimar: we usually demonstrate arabbix if the audience are interrested more in arabic
[[BR]]17:32 < alaa> nadim: we'd love to, but to us a LUG is a very local thing, so I'm not sure how we can cooperate
[[BR]]17:32 < olimar> ok good!
[[BR]]17:33 < DJ-KING> Jad: what's the CTCP version ?
[[BR]]17:33 < Uniball> olimar: other than that we can use mandrake and show them that they can browse, write in arabic, ........
[[BR]]17:33 < CVirus_Sakia> DJ-KING, 
[[BR]]17:33 < whirlpool> nadim, we sould love to. But what kind of cooperation. I mean there is the price of tickets and accomodation you know.
[[BR]]17:33 < alaa> nadim: but specifics, we need a fully arabized mandrake, we need a very stable and easy to use arabbix
[[BR]]17:33 <@kuru> alaa: When you have a specific venue, find a member from your lug who is also an active Arabeyes member, propose it to core and we can take it from there.
[[BR]]17:33 < alaa> nadim: we need documentation
[[BR]]17:33 < olimar> Well but only if the ppl ask for it?
[[BR]]17:33 <@kuru> alaa: as I said, a joint representations might do the trick (and may not)
[[BR]]17:33 -!- SeeKeR [~RooT@62.135.4.101] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]17:33 <@nadim> alaa: well to learn from each other (from different LUGs) and to simply know what is taking shape - the issues irrespective of location will be the same no matter where you are, no ?
[[BR]]17:33 <@kuru> alaa: but aside from that, I am not sure how else Arabeyes as a project can help.
[[BR]]17:34 < Lordveda> I say that specifying a distribution is bit distracting
[[BR]]17:34 < alaa> kuru: we'll try that, no academic work till school year starts
[[BR]]17:34 < Uniball> kuru we have no active arabeyes members ;)
[[BR]]17:34 < Lordveda> all Linux distributions can do arabic if properly configured
[[BR]]17:34 < alaa> nadim: yeah, but lugs have websites, and they should put everything there
[[BR]]17:34 < Lordveda> in X for sure
[[BR]]17:34 <@kuru> alaa: yeah, if it's Uniball forget it ;)
[[BR]]17:34 < alaa> nadim: so to learn from each other doesn't realy need active involvment
[[BR]]17:34  * kuru chuckles
[[BR]]17:34 <@yuyu> Uniball, i dont belive you :-)
[[BR]]17:35 < olimar> I think the egyption lug has to do more for some Arabic love, if you demo Arabic distros running in Arabic ppl will get more happy and proud
[[BR]]17:35 < whirlpool> Lordveda, yes. but we need the configuration to be as easily as possible. one single click should do it.
[[BR]]17:35 < Uniball> nadim: sure, Personally i welcome cooperating with any lug, even LE, I think this is the official  opinion too. not that sure
[[BR]]17:35 < Uniball> yuyu: so don't ;)
[[BR]]17:35 <@yuyu> Uniball, hehehe
[[BR]]17:35 < olimar> And I think this is important to show that we are part of the OSS world
[[BR]]17:35 < alaa> nadim: one thing we can help each other with though is documenting success stories
[[BR]]17:35 < alaa> nadim: when advocating to small business here and some NGOs they ask for examples
[[BR]]17:35 < alaa> nadim: or people using FOSS, and mentioning munich is meaningless
[[BR]]17:35 <@nadim> alaa: good point
[[BR]]17:36 < alaa> nadim: to them 'el 7'awagat' went to space, there is no comparison
[[BR]]17:36 < alaa> nadim: we have identified one SMB case study and hopefully in two weeks we'll publish it
[[BR]]17:36 < olimar> whirlpool, choosing Arabic at the beginning of an installation makes the whole process works in Arabic support built into the running OS from fonts to input to scripts
[[BR]]17:36 <@nadim> alaa: one thing I continnue to harp on is our collective need to get OpenArabia.org properly setup (website and content) - would eglug like to help ?
[[BR]]17:36 < alaa> nadim: if each lug does that, it will make a great differnece
[[BR]]17:36 < olimar> &
[[BR]]17:36 < Uniball> one of the things i've done was hosting the project goneme wiki @ foolab.org, Maybe we can discuss this and host it @ eglug.org. yes we are part of the OSS move in the whole world
[[BR]]17:36 <@kuru> nadim: I read that al'7a... with s/g/l ;)
[[BR]]17:37 < alaa> nadim: its a question to the members
[[BR]]17:37 < Lordveda> olimar: I tried what you are pointing to in debian installer
[[BR]]17:37 < alaa> nadim: the ones online at the moment are among the busiest
[[BR]]17:37 < Lordveda> olimar: it didn't work till the end
[[BR]]17:37 < olimar> And what was the result Lord?
[[BR]]17:37 < Jad> DJ-KING, just to make sure all of you are not using BLOWS.
[[BR]]17:37 < olimar> Well Debian is no in unstable
[[BR]]17:37 < olimar> now
[[BR]]17:37 < olimar> try Mdk 
[[BR]]17:37 < DJ-KING> Jad: what's yer Distru ?
[[BR]]17:37 < Jad> DJ-KING, Embark
[[BR]]17:37 <@nadim> alaa: what you note (needing success stories, etc) is what I mean
[[BR]]17:38 < Jad> A distribution I have done..
[[BR]]17:38 < Lordveda> olimar: the installer doesn't work in arabic till its end
[[BR]]17:38 < DJ-KING> Jad: amazing 
[[BR]]17:38 < Lordveda> olimar: I am a Redhatter
[[BR]]17:38 < olimar> lord but that's exactly our mission too we have to get support to a full working thing
[[BR]]17:38 < Jad> DJ-KING, http://linux.com.lb
[[BR]]17:38 <@nadim> by publishing such info on say OpenArabia.org :-) we can tell other LUGs what they should do to help the collective - see my point ?
[[BR]]17:39 <@kuru> nadim: I'm not going to be around till my turns comes up
[[BR]]17:39 < whirlpool> olimar, ( strxg this might intrest you) yes exactly that is what mandrake (and probably other dirstos ) is reaching. But for example there is really teeny weeny configuration options. Aparat from libfreetype6, there is a checkbox in openoffice options that enables Complex Text Layouts that should be automatically checked if i choose arabic in the first place. 
[[BR]]17:39 <@kuru> nadim: can you take over the mod'ing?
[[BR]]17:39 < alaa> hmm did we miss a question up there that we did not answer?
[[BR]]17:39 <@nadim> kuru: gimme a time
[[BR]]17:39 <@kuru> nadim: from now till 1430 UTC
[[BR]]17:39 < Lordveda> besides sometimes openoffice doesn't write arabic even with good fonts
[[BR]]17:39 <@nadim> kuru: there is always yuyu (he's small but powerful :-)
[[BR]]17:40 <@yuyu> kuruok, 50 minutes
[[BR]]17:40 < alaa> the point folks is, the tech savvy are moving to GNU/Linux on their own (or are too invested in proprietary)
[[BR]]17:40 <@nadim> kuru: yuyu and I will manage
[[BR]]17:40 < alaa> the institutes are too scarred of hackers and want some dignified entities to talk to
[[BR]]17:40 < cuco> whoohoo
[[BR]]17:40 < alaa> and the small enterprise and helpless individuals are tooo much newbies so they need all the help we can give them
[[BR]]17:41 < cuco> whoohoo! kde problems are gone!
[[BR]]17:41 < alaa> eglug is trying with all, but our bet is on the n00bs
[[BR]]17:41 < alaa> and we ask the whole arabic community to put them in mind
[[BR]]17:41 <@nadim> n00bs are ?
[[BR]]17:41  * yuyu is eating a carrotes salad
[[BR]]17:41 <@nadim> newbies ?
[[BR]]17:41 < alaa> nadim: total newbies
[[BR]]17:41 <@nadim> alaa: noted
[[BR]]17:42 <@nadim> alaa: what is your 1 year plan ?
[[BR]]17:42 < olimar> whirlpool, true but this does not mean that Arabic support is difficult to manage in todayd linux distros. IMHO as long as you can read and write in Arabic there is some basic support, and as long as you indeed can make this happen with one click then we are on the right road. What misses is making ppl know about and do some focus upon this and some love for your very well known lug (and I really mean this) is IMHO very important
[[BR]]17:42 < alaa> nadim: for instance the arabic support howto is fit for computer science heavy weights as far as most people are concerned
[[BR]]17:42 <@nadim> what beyond those things you've noted you'd like to accomplish ?
[[BR]]17:42 < Lordveda> I have fellow doctors that are still convinced that Linux is an operating system for the poor people
[[BR]]17:43 <@kuru> alaa: heh.. "heavy-weights"? ;)
[[BR]]17:43 < alaa> olimar: we try to componsate this by offering free support and by having a permenant place for people to visit us and ask questions, and by visiting them ourselves
[[BR]]17:43 < whirlpool> Lordveda, tell your fellow doctors that compared to other doctors worldwide they are poor. 
[[BR]]17:43 < alaa> olimar: but still if a step can be eleminated it would be great
[[BR]]17:43 < olimar> you as a lug can make ppl aware of Arabic support in Linux and it is imho important to make ppl aware of the FOSS idea AND combine this with the Arabization efforts targeted towards FOSS
[[BR]]17:43 < mako-sama> Lordveda: even poor people can get powerful tools.. more powerful than what 'rich people' think they have :)
[[BR]]17:43 <@kuru> alaa: some things are not possible to make simple for the newbie user.. and that is a short-coming of distro's support more than anything else
[[BR]]17:43 < alaa> olimar: we put great emphasise on FOSS don't worry
[[BR]]17:43 < Lordveda> mako-sama: good answer
[[BR]]17:44 < Lordveda> alaa: explain FOSS
[[BR]]17:44 < alaa> kuru: I know this, the thing is I bugzilla all the time
[[BR]]17:44 < olimar> I have big respect for you so I don't worry ;) But some more love for Arabized software would be a big plus ;)
[[BR]]17:44 < whirlpool> nadim, the one year plan; very sketchy. But two more large installfests.
[[BR]]17:44 < Uniball> Lordveda: STFW
[[BR]]17:44 < alaa> kuru: but as the community is small, coordinated bug pressure is the only way to go
[[BR]]17:44 <@nadim> whirlpool: cool
[[BR]]17:44 < Lordveda> Uniball: was talking to alaa
[[BR]]17:44 < Lordveda> :P
[[BR]]17:44 < alaa> kuru: and arabeyes is the perfect venue for this
[[BR]]17:44 < Uniball> Lordveda: i'm alaa
[[BR]]17:44 < Uniball> Lordveda: we exchanged the names
[[BR]]17:44 <@nadim> whirlpool: what can Arabeyes do to make you guys more successful ?
[[BR]]17:44 <@kuru> alaa: and we have been doing this for a long time now
[[BR]]17:45 < alaa> kuru: remember the mozilla bug, it took advocacy to fix it
[[BR]]17:45 < olimar> good Q nadim
[[BR]]17:45 <@kuru> alaa: hence the whole www.arabeyes.org/OpenBugs that Munzir maintains
[[BR]]17:45 < Lordveda> Uniball: was talking to the person having the alaa nick
[[BR]]17:45 < Lordveda> :)
[[BR]]17:45 < alaa> kuru: ma3lesh not very effectivly then, the mozilla bug is my example
[[BR]]17:45 < olimar> Uniball what do you think do WE have to do so that you can get some free apartments in Sharam alsheikh?
[[BR]]17:45 <@kuru> alaa: what do you suggest?
[[BR]]17:45 < alaa> kuru: the wiki is for arabeyes, I mean that arabeyes should communicate the arabic community's needs to developers
[[BR]]17:45 < alaa> kuru: generate noise, find sympathetic people
[[BR]]17:46 < olimar> alaa how generate noise?
[[BR]]17:46 < whirlpool> olimar, yes good point. but we face totally different and varied misconceptions like is there a GUI
[[BR]]17:46 < mako-sama> olimar: free as in.. gratis ?
[[BR]]17:46 < alaa> kuru: write some of these annoying GNU/Linux ain't ready till aunt 3adila can do that
[[BR]]17:46 < olimar> yes mako gratis
[[BR]]17:46 < alaa> kuru: articles and spread them around
[[BR]]17:46 <@kuru> alaa: Arabic linux fud? ;)
[[BR]]17:46 < olimar> whirlpool what do you mean?
[[BR]]17:46 <@kuru> alaa: point taken though.
[[BR]]17:46 < Uniball> olimar: it's the same that you think I should do so that you'll be ARE president ;)
[[BR]]17:47 < olimar> hehe ;)
[[BR]]17:47 < alaa> kuru: well not fud
[[BR]]17:47 <@kuru> alaa: joking.
[[BR]]17:47 <@kuru> alaa: I got your point.
[[BR]]17:47 <@kuru> alaa: valid point
[[BR]]17:47 < whirlpool> nadim: in our plans to, to teach our active members to be able to report bugs and  translate po files. this way we can have an automatic army of arabization :)
[[BR]]17:47 < alaa> but frankly we need more devs
[[BR]]17:47 < Uniball> olimar: i didn't get the Q
[[BR]]17:47 <@kuru> alaa: that's where the lugs can help
[[BR]]17:47 < olimar> whirlpool, ic so there are big misconseptions about Linux indeed
[[BR]]17:47 <@kuru> alaa: by recruiting developers
[[BR]]17:48 <@kuru> alaa: since they are on the ground
[[BR]]17:48 < alaa> kuru: we try walahi
[[BR]]17:48 < olimar> Uniball I was only repeating nadims Q: if there is something YOU guys want from us to help you with
[[BR]]17:48 < alaa> kuru: the thing is the important desktop projects are scarry
[[BR]]17:48 <@kuru> alaa: I'm sure you do -- but it's a problem that doesn't have a simple solution. There simply aren't enough people who are skilled and interested.
[[BR]]17:48 < Uniball> olimar: ahh i c, ask alaa
[[BR]]17:48 <@kuru> that last 'and' is a logical and.
[[BR]]17:48 < olimar> alaa why are they scary?
[[BR]]17:48 < alaa> kuru: me and uniball struggled with the mozilla bug for a month just trying to find out which damned file it was in (next time we'll grep for IBM)
[[BR]]17:49 <@kuru> olimar: they are too big to get involved in easily.. ie. substantial learning curve.
[[BR]]17:49 < whirlpool> olimar, but i would say only on the people who are advanced with windows. Computer newbies in general don't have any knowledge about linux in the first place
[[BR]]17:49 < munzir> alaa: Now with www.arabeyes.org/OpenBugs on your next slashdot article, you can point to lots of bugs instead of only one bug ;) We did part of the job and you continue
[[BR]]17:49 < olimar> whirlpool, ic
[[BR]]17:49 < Uniball> alaa: no, for Ahmaad and Mohammed ;)
[[BR]]17:50 < whirlpool> munzir, haha, why do you think we will make it to slashdot again ?
[[BR]]17:50 < alaa> munzir: hehehe the thing is a slashdot interview is a once in a lifetime thing, we need a more effective process
[[BR]]17:50 < Lordveda> question: can total newbies to computers learn and use Linux with ease?"
[[BR]]17:50 < alaa> munzir: find the pablos of the world and bore them to death or something
[[BR]]17:50 <@kuru> Lordveda: yes.
[[BR]]17:50 <@kuru> Lordveda: can they install and use.. not so sure.
[[BR]]17:50 < olimar> kuru, IMHO we don't need to get into dekstop dev yet beyong implementing support for Arabic scripts cz Arabic technolog itself is very scarce
[[BR]]17:50 < mako-sama> Lordveda: yes.. easier than converting from win to lin
[[BR]]17:51 < mako-sama> installing is another issue
[[BR]]17:51 < Lordveda> I am not objecting that fact
[[BR]]17:51 < alaa> munzir: even the FOSS community can be swayed by noise, look at how eugena is destroying gnome single handedly
[[BR]]17:51 <@nadim> maybe we should do an ArabicBugs monthly letter and have it be posted in /. or other places
[[BR]]17:51 < olimar> Maybe get something on arabia.com
[[BR]]17:51 < olimar> or other famous sites
[[BR]]17:51 < mako-sama> but about using, i have a living example here.. my mother is using linux with ease
[[BR]]17:51 < Lordveda> I am stating some questions that many Windows users can ask
[[BR]]17:51 < whirlpool> Lordveda, alaa is working on abou el nomros. he will be setting up a linux lab and teaching unprevilged people linux. u will then get the answer for your question.
[[BR]]17:51 -!- Jad [~Jad@63.218.55.173] has quit ["Leaving"]
[[BR]]17:51 <@nadim> or linuxtoday or similar - akin to Gnome/KDE digests
[[BR]]17:51 < olimar> mako, nowadays if you are a good sysadmin (even a hobby sysadmin) you can make linux work for everyone
[[BR]]17:52 < alaa> I already set up the lab and courses will beging next week or the week after
[[BR]]17:52 < mako-sama> olimar: exactly
[[BR]]17:52 <@nadim> in any regard - we need to wrap-up.  In 10 minutes we'll be having Mr. Lars Knoll
[[BR]]17:52 < alaa> I'm dealing with young mothers with only basic education, young underprivileged kids who are barely making it through school etc
[[BR]]17:52 < mako-sama> btw nadim
[[BR]]17:52 < whirlpool> nadim, the openbugs could go on newsvac
[[BR]]17:52 < munzir> ALL_OF_YOU: may I ask you to go check and vote for all the bugs in www.arabeyes.org/OpenBugs now or during the breaks. This is the least we can do. Thanks
[[BR]]17:52 <@nadim> make that 4 minutes :-)
[[BR]]17:52 < alaa> and my focus group has no problems at all with GNU/Linux
[[BR]]17:53 -!- A[D]minS [~ADminS@81.10.10.181] has quit ["Leaving"]
[[BR]]17:53 <@nadim> whirlpool: make it so (newsvac) :-)
[[BR]]17:53 <@nadim> munzir: good point
[[BR]]17:53 < alaa> anyway one last advice
[[BR]]17:53 <@nadim> alaa: go
[[BR]]17:53 < alaa> based on our experience here, there are lots of GNU/Linux users
[[BR]]17:54 < alaa> enthusiaist and even development going on in our countries
[[BR]]17:54 < alaa> most do it quietly believing no one cares, or thinking they're the only ones
[[BR]]17:54 < alaa> seek those and try to publicize them
[[BR]]17:54 <@nadim> why aren't they known to us then - are we all collectively not doing a good job in reaching out to 'em ?
[[BR]]17:54 < mako-sama> nadim: about the QA after the presentation, why don't you ask users to msg you thier queries so you can paste them in the channel ? i think that will make things a little bit more organized
[[BR]]17:54 < alaa> this is a great asset, our problems will be over when we have a real active community
[[BR]]17:55 -!- Jad [~Jad@82.116.136.57] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]17:55 < alaa> not just some pioneers
[[BR]]17:55 < Uniball> mako-sama: i don't like this
[[BR]]17:55 -!- SeeKeR [~RooT@62.135.4.101] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
[[BR]]17:55 < olimar> alaa, that's why I think switching to Arabic GUIs is a big plus
[[BR]]17:55 < mako-sama> ofcourse i might be wrong :p
[[BR]]17:55 < mako-sama> or like Uniball, some people won't like it ;)
[[BR]]17:55 <@nadim> mako-sama: too much work and too restrictive
[[BR]]17:55 < olimar> for these ppl working in Arabic is the only best solution I think instead of struggling with english guis
[[BR]]17:55 < alaa> olimar: huh?
[[BR]]17:55 < alaa> nadim: not as such but you won't meet them at the web
[[BR]]17:56 < whirlpool> this is not a party its a typing marathon !
[[BR]]17:56 < alaa> nadim: when we did the install fest we thought we'd get 150
[[BR]]17:56 < alaa> nadim: we got 3000
[[BR]]17:56 < olimar> young mothers with basic education etc..
[[BR]]17:56 < alaa> nadim: the fest flushed them out
[[BR]]17:56 <@nadim> alaa: so installfests are the key/answer ?
[[BR]]17:56 < alaa> olimar: they prefered english GUI
[[BR]]17:56 <@nadim> fest == raid-insect-remover :-)
[[BR]]17:56 < olimar> have you shawn them Arabic guis?
[[BR]]17:56 < alaa> olimar: and for a good reason, our arabic translation is different from M$ and they'll only get work on M$
[[BR]]17:56 < alaa> olimar: I did yes
[[BR]]17:56 < olimar> which one?
[[BR]]17:57 < munzir> alaa: For a slashdot article I believe it's possible with roblimo being here hidden somewhere ;)
[[BR]]17:57 < alaa> olimar: believe me it was a collective decision, KDE, Gnome and OppenOffice
[[BR]]17:57 <@yuyu> the QT presenation is approaching
[[BR]]17:57 < alaa> munzir: hehehe, it did me alot of good, I wouldn't mind another one
[[BR]]17:57 < olimar> what were the points of criticism?
[[BR]]17:57 <@yuyu> is Lars Knoll here ?
[[BR]]17:57 < alaa> munzir: got me a full time job, got me in contact with international donors etc
[[BR]]17:57 <@nadim> alaa/whirlpool: we _THANK_ you deeply for your time and your courage in taking on this difficult task and shining through (while still have loads of fun) - keep at it and keep us posted
[[BR]]17:57 < alaa> olimar: different from M$
[[BR]]17:58 < roblimo> Already up: http://trends.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=04/07/29/121220
[[BR]]17:58 < whirlpool> nadim, we thank you too
[[BR]]17:58 <@yuyu> roblimo, wow !
[[BR]]17:58 < olimar> Hmm but as long as it works and is self explanatory I don't see why these ppl were uneased, were there problems in dealing with the apps?
[[BR]]17:59 < olimar> have they actually worked on some real apps? and done for 30 minutes work withthem?
[[BR]]17:59 <@nadim> roblimo: this year we're hoping to publish a summary of the logs instead of raw content like last year :-)  Thanks btw.
[[BR]]17:59 < munzir> Haven't I warned you I am smelling something from the word roblimo to my right pane in my xchat? ;)
[[BR]]17:59 <@nadim> Mr. Lars Knoll - you there ?
[[BR]]18:00 <@yuyu> nadim, seems like he is not here yet
[[BR]]18:00 <@nadim> anyone know lars' nick ?
[[BR]]18:00 < alaa> olimar: its never self explanatory
[[BR]]18:00 < alaa> olimar: thats the point
[[BR]]18:00 <@yuyu> nadim, last year it was 'lars'
[[BR]]18:00 < alaa> olimar: no UI is, this is a total misconception
[[BR]]18:00 < olimar> I can't understand how mothers would prefer english over Arabic only cz it's different then M$ translation, I totally believe you ;) but I as the coordinator of the gnome project want to understand more to direct my work
[[BR]]18:00 < alaa> olimar: no one knows what a file is
[[BR]]18:00 < isam> roblimo, we would like you to read the 12 hours IRC log and sum it .. this is what Nadim is saying
[[BR]]18:01 < alaa> olimar: and calling it malaf does not make it easier, except if they can't or won't read english at all
[[BR]]18:01 < olimar> But in M$ it is also called malaf...
[[BR]]18:01 < alaa> olimar: in my particular case I thought english is a great barrier, it isn't, they all got enough education to read their way out of uis
[[BR]]18:01 < alaa> olimar: yeah but on other things its different
[[BR]]18:01 < alaa> olimar: I'm not saying it shouldn't be different
[[BR]]18:02 < olimar> But alaa did you know that only in the Arabic countries ppl don't use their language to interact with PCs
[[BR]]18:02 <@nadim> anyone in contact with lars ?
[[BR]]18:02 < alaa> olimar: I'm saying in my particular example the difference is a problem
[[BR]]18:02 <@nadim> our first victim ? :-)
[[BR]]18:02 < olimar> in Japan ppl use japanese and here in China ppl use chinese
[[BR]]18:02 < cuco> olimar, i can think another country with that problem
[[BR]]18:02 < olimar> will not here in China
[[BR]]18:02 < olimar> I mean in China
[[BR]]18:02 < alaa> olimar: I don't know that this is true, but I don't see what this changes
[[BR]]18:02 < olimar> I was last week in Japan ;)
[[BR]]18:03 <@yuyu> nadim, try to send him an email
[[BR]]18:03 < olimar> in in Europe ppl also only use their languages
[[BR]]18:03 < olimar> and I have a chinese friend whom PC I used 
[[BR]]18:03 < alaa> olimar: I was in france, hungary, sweden and austria and all people I met used english UIs, but I made no conclusions anyway
[[BR]]18:03 < olimar> only Arabs prefer to use PCs with english or french
[[BR]]18:03 < munzir> nadim: Lars nick is lars ;)
[[BR]]18:04 < mako-sama> olimar: we learn everything in either english or french
[[BR]]18:04 < olimar> Well I never saw this even the devs I met were using it in their respective language, but my conclusion does not come from your statement
[[BR]]18:04 <@yuyu> olimar, i know (lots) of pfrench ppl who use english linux btw
[[BR]]18:04 < mako-sama> olimar: english is _the_ official language in my uni
[[BR]]18:04 < olimar> I was before 2 years in Tunisia and all used french apps
[[BR]]18:04 < alaa> olimar: but IMO if arabs choose english then this means one of two things, there is a problem in the arabic UI or a problem in the arabic language
[[BR]]18:04 < olimar> I don't know how the situation looks in Egypt ...
[[BR]]18:04 <@nadim> yuyu: just sent lars an email
[[BR]]18:04 < alaa> olimar: not that there is a problem in the arab people
[[BR]]18:04 <@yuyu> nadim, cool. thanks
[[BR]]18:05 < olimar> alaa, I am a honest ppl and I think there is a problem...
[[BR]]18:05 < olimar> person
[[BR]]18:05 < alaa> olimar: anyways we get both, the first people I met who used arabic ui's where in abu al nomros
[[BR]]18:05 < alaa> olimar: I'm migrating the NGO office and these will probably use arabic uis
[[BR]]18:05 < mako-sama> i know one thing.. I like to use the english UI just like how much I like to watch japanese TV shows in japanese
[[BR]]18:05 < olimar> well I am not against ppl using english uis but I am FOR using Arabic uis too
[[BR]]18:05 < alaa> olimar: the courses for the first month at least will run on english UI
[[BR]]18:05 < mako-sama> or read japanese books in japanese
[[BR]]18:05 <@nadim> alaa: so what do you ? ie. as in job ?
[[BR]]18:05 < olimar> mako, the poblem is very different I am not against geeks using english uis
[[BR]]18:06 < mako-sama> chinese movies.. in chinese (with translation of course)
[[BR]]18:06 < alaa> nadim: I work for an italia NGO (cospe) that does community development in egypt
[[BR]]18:06 <@nadim> ah, very cool
[[BR]]18:06 < olimar> I am against making normal ppl use english uis only cz they know a little bit of english cz this is againt the development of Arabic culture imho, and because I was in many countries and in every country ppl only used PCs with their language
[[BR]]18:06 < alaa> nadim: cospe decided to go FOSS, I'm implementing a community media center in a poor giza suburb called abu al nomros
[[BR]]18:06 < olimar> the general concus is only in the Arabic region different
[[BR]]18:07 < alaa> nadim: first activity is vocational training on using computers and the internet, all based on GNU/Linux
[[BR]]18:07 < olimar> this does not mean english is bad or 100% have to use arabic
[[BR]]18:07 -!- SoPpY_BoY [~sakia@217.52.244.1] has quit ["Leaving"]
[[BR]]18:07 < alaa> nadim: I'm also migrating the cospe office and the NGOs we deal with to GNU/Linux and FOSS
[[BR]]18:07 <@yuyu> olimar, you know what is the pb with arabic UI for arabic ppl
[[BR]]18:07 <@yuyu> olimar, it's that it _is_ in classical arabic (ie not their native language)
[[BR]]18:07 < alaa> nadim: interestingly enough, other projects related to the italia aid are using and developing FOSS here in egypt
[[BR]]18:08 < mako-sama> yuyu: i don't think that's a valid reason
[[BR]]18:08 <@yuyu> olimar, so sometimes, using french or english sounds more natural to them.
[[BR]]18:08 <@yuyu> mako-sama, believe me, it is
[[BR]]18:08 < mako-sama> yuyu: I would _hate_ to use a UI that doesn't use correct arabic
[[BR]]18:08 < alaa> nadim: we got a big BIG BIG micro credit app developed in PHP under the horde framework and released under the GPL
[[BR]]18:08 < alaa> nadim: hopefully the topic of an upcoming case study
[[BR]]18:08 < olimar> yuyu, mmm I don't know... You think classic Arabic is uncool but others think it is cool, and that's our problem as long as we take classic Arabic out from our daily life the more it feels uncool
[[BR]]18:08 <@yuyu> mako-sama, i'm not saying that.
[[BR]]18:08 <@nadim> we can't tell people what to do or what to use - we can simply offer then an alternative and have _them_ decide
[[BR]]18:09 < olimar> So why are we doing the translation work then yuyu?
[[BR]]18:09 <@nadim> alaa: sounds really interesting - keep at it
[[BR]]18:09 <@yuyu> mako-sama, i'm not saying that using 'darja' is better.
[[BR]]18:09 < olimar> I'll change the group and become member of gnome-fr ;)
[[BR]]18:09 <@yuyu> mako-sama, it's a dilemma.
[[BR]]18:09 < mako-sama> yuyu: what is 'thier native language' then ?
[[BR]]18:09 <@yuyu> mako-sama, darja
[[BR]]18:09 < mako-sama> ic
[[BR]]18:09 < olimar> nadim, I think we HAVE to make them change their minds too
[[BR]]18:09 <@yuyu> mako-sama, non classical arabic, local arabic
[[BR]]18:09 -!- ezabi [~ezabi@62.139.109.178] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]18:09 < Uniball> brb
[[BR]]18:10 < Uniball> ezabi: hi
[[BR]]18:10 -!- DarKnesS_WolF [~ssssssss@217.139.202.173] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]18:10 < Uniball> brb
[[BR]]18:10 < alaa> I'm pro local arabic
[[BR]]18:10 < DarKnesS_WolF> Uniball :P
[[BR]]18:10 <@nadim> olimar: we can't
[[BR]]18:10 < Uniball> DarKnesS_WolF: basha, miss you
[[BR]]18:10 < alaa> I'd use a 3ameya UI
[[BR]]18:10 < Uniball> brb
[[BR]]18:10 < olimar> I am pro classic Arabic
[[BR]]18:10 < alaa> but I can see it will be a support mess
[[BR]]18:10 < DarKnesS_WolF> nice that i`m here at the party time
[[BR]]18:10 <@nadim> to translate - we must use classic arabic
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[[BR]]18:10 < alaa> one of the things about english UI is its easy to get support, you google for the thing you find it
[[BR]]18:10 < olimar> in germany Bavarian is so different then classic german but all love classic german
[[BR]]18:10 < mako-sama> i think people will use a UI that uses local accents just because it's 'fun'
[[BR]]18:10 < olimar> so why is the sitaution different in the Arabic region?
[[BR]]18:11 < DarKnesS_WolF> DJ-KING u there?
[[BR]]18:11 < mako-sama> and that 'fun' will go away in few days
[[BR]]18:11 <@nadim> olimar: its not
[[BR]]18:11 < alaa> olimar: all germans I met hated classical except the litrature students
[[BR]]18:11 < olimar> nadim, how?
[[BR]]18:11 < olimar> alaa I am german
[[BR]]18:11 -!- lars [~lars@apathy.troll.no] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]18:11 <@nadim> ah, here he is :-)
[[BR]]18:11 < lars> hi
[[BR]]18:11 <@yuyu> alaa, you will have ar_DZ, ar_EG, ar_TN etc
[[BR]]18:11 < olimar> we love our classic german
[[BR]]18:11 <@nadim> lars: salam
[[BR]]18:11 < cuco> welcome lars  
[[BR]]18:11 <@yuyu> lars hi
[[BR]]18:11 < lars> sorry I'm late.
[[BR]]18:11 <@nadim> ok, its lars time
[[BR]]18:11 < alaa> olimar: ok are you a literature student :-)??
[[BR]]18:11 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+m] by nadim
[[BR]]18:11 <@yuyu> alaa, it will be hell
[[BR]]18:12 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-m] by nadim
[[BR]]18:12 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+v lars] by yuyu
[[BR]]18:12 <@nadim> lars: I can't seem to give you +v
[[BR]]18:12 <@yuyu> nadim, i did
[[BR]]18:12 < DarKnesS_WolF> i thout the party is over :D
[[BR]]18:12 <@nadim> ah, ok
[[BR]]18:12 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+m] by nadim
[[BR]]18:12 <@nadim> lars: you should be able to talk now in peace :-)
[[BR]]18:12 <@yuyu> lars, want to do a presenattion ?
[[BR]]18:13 -!- shachar [~sun@line102-130.adsl.actcom.co.il] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]18:13 <@nadim> an intro would be nice
[[BR]]18:13 <+lars> yuyu: I have nothing prepared. But I'll give a short intro.
[[BR]]18:13 <@nadim> ah, good
[[BR]]18:13 <@yuyu> cool. thanks
[[BR]]18:13 <@nadim> lars: go ahead
[[BR]]18:14 <+lars> for those who don't know me: I work at Trolltech on the Qt library and KDE.
[[BR]]18:14 -!- CVirus_Sakia [~newcomer@217.52.244.1] has quit [Client Quit]
[[BR]]18:14 <+lars> I'm responsible for a big part of the Qt library, especially everything related to i18n, text and related.
[[BR]]18:15 <+lars> in KDE I'm one of the maintainers of the KHTML library (the one konqueror and Safari use).
[[BR]]18:15 <+lars> the thing most interesting to you is my work on internationalization and complex text layouting in Qt.
[[BR]]18:16 <+lars> as I said I haven't prepared anything, so I'm mainly here to answer your questions, listen to suggestions what we could/should do better in Qt/KDE etc.
[[BR]]18:17 <@yuyu> ok :-)
[[BR]]18:17 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-m] by nadim
[[BR]]18:17 < cuco> lars, i would like to know, if you are planning of adding RLM/LRM input support in qt? 
[[BR]]18:17 <@nadim> so we're now open to Q&A's
[[BR]]18:17 <@yuyu> lars, i have lots of qns ;)
[[BR]]18:17 <@yuyu> lars: first issue N49191 :-)
[[BR]]18:18 < cuco> yuyu, can you link to it? what is it?
[[BR]]18:18 < munzir> lars: hi and thanks, the problem of the arabic broken shaping after a floating point is driving us mad ;)
[[BR]]18:18 <@yuyu> cucu, it's a (long) bug report
[[BR]]18:18 < cuco> yuyu, shoot
[[BR]]18:18 <+lars> cuco: I want to have support for adding Unicode control chars in Qt 4 by the latest.
[[BR]]18:18 <@yuyu> cuco, https://www.arabeyes.org/QtBugs
[[BR]]18:19 <@yuyu> lars, we have tried to compile all the QT related bugs in this page https://www.arabeyes.org/QtBugs
[[BR]]18:19 < cuco> lars, ok, this is good news. 2nd questiom: how about having an option to set the location on QScrollView? or use the reverse layout system per widget instead of per "desktop"?
[[BR]]18:19 -!- ezabi [~ezabi@62.139.109.178] has quit ["Leaving"]
[[BR]]18:19 < DJ-KING> hey DarKnesS_WolF
[[BR]]18:20 <@yuyu> lars, rtl & arabic related bugs actually, but not only
[[BR]]18:20 <+lars> yuyu: that's quite a few things. We can't solve all of them in the Qt 3 series unfortunately. I'llmake sure the stuff works in Qt 4 though.
[[BR]]18:20 <@yuyu> lars after submitting the bug report
[[BR]]18:20 <+lars> munzir: I thought we fixed this in Qt 3.3.2.
[[BR]]18:20 <@yuyu> lars we did not have much feedback
[[BR]]18:21 < munzir> lars: I mean this one: http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56608 It's not closed yet and now it appears with its ugly face in openoffice.org that has nothing to do with qt http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=32289!!
[[BR]]18:21 < munzir> lars: it's not fixed yet!
[[BR]]18:22 <+lars> munzir: hmmm... maybe I fixed it after the 3.3.2 release. let me check.
[[BR]]18:22 < munzir> lars: if you check the qt-section on ttp://www.arabeyes.org/OpenBugs you will see the 3 most irritating problems for us.
[[BR]]18:22 <@yuyu> lars, any dae for QT4 ? ;)
[[BR]]18:22 <@yuyu> s/dae/date
[[BR]]18:22 <+lars> munzir: looks like I fixed it for 3.3.3
[[BR]]18:22 -!- manal_ [~manal@62.135.86.19] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)]
[[BR]]18:23 < cuco> yuyu, i cannot find that bug, in short what does it do?
[[BR]]18:23 <@yuyu> cuco, what bug ?
[[BR]]18:23 < munzir> lars: It's really bad not to be able to type English and Arabic together yet properly. Things like not even being able to paste an Arabic text !!
[[BR]]18:23 < shachar> lars, what bidi library does QT use?
[[BR]]18:23 <@yuyu> cucu it's a 'list' of bugs
[[BR]]18:23 < cuco> N49191
[[BR]]18:23 <+lars> yuyu: Qt 4 will come beginning of 2005
[[BR]]18:23 < cuco> shachar, some internal one, not an external one
[[BR]]18:23 <@yuyu> cuco, the whole wiki page is a bug report ;)
[[BR]]18:23 <+lars> munzir: that works fine for me.
[[BR]]18:23 <@yuyu> lars, ah cool
[[BR]]18:24 <+lars> shachar: I wrote it.
[[BR]]18:24 < munzir> lars: I filed http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=81858 and http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=86235 especially for you
[[BR]]18:24 <@nadim> I'm not sure chasing specific bugs is appropriate right now - maybe a more relevant issue would be to ask lars how to track these bugs and/if there is anything we/you can do to make them happen sooner rather than later
[[BR]]18:24 < shachar> so you reimplemented annex 9????
[[BR]]18:24 <+lars> munzir: if the bug is Qt specific (ie. it appears in Qt only apps, please send the report to qt-bugs@trolltech.com. I'll see them a lot faster like that.
[[BR]]18:24 < munzir> lars: the problem with the current way Qt handles bugs make them not trasparent
[[BR]]18:25 < munzir> lars: can't we have something more general than emails? It would be much better for us. We don't even know when it's fixed like this.
[[BR]]18:26 <+lars> nadim: it depends on the nature of the bug. Some are very hard to solve without running great risks of breaking other things. Some others are easierand I usually try to do these for the next patch release.
[[BR]]18:26 <@nadim> there isn't a web interface for bugs (sorry I'm not a Qt user)
[[BR]]18:26 < munzir> lars: do you check qt componenet of kdelibs for bugs? Are you responsible for it in one way or another?
[[BR]]18:26 <+lars> munzir: usually you should get an answer when a bug is fixed (but sometimes this gets lost). Otherwise the changes file for the latest Qt release should tell about fixed bugs.
[[BR]]18:26 <@yuyu> lars, in that list of bugs (wiki page) there are some bugs that seem to be easy to solve (or at least i think so ;-)
[[BR]]18:27 < isam> shachar, infact Lars did the Bidi for t and Khtml
[[BR]]18:27 < isam> or very semilar Bidi code is used in both
[[BR]]18:27 <+lars> yuyu: I didn't find the time up to now to read through it. Until 5 minutes ago I didn't know it existed ;-)
[[BR]]18:27 < shachar> isam, t?
[[BR]]18:27 <+lars> isam: I wrote them both.
[[BR]]18:27 <@yuyu> lars, submitted last may, issue N49191 :-)
[[BR]]18:27 <+lars> shachar: Qt
[[BR]]18:27 < isam> shachar, QT and khtml
[[BR]]18:27 <@nadim> lars: and that seems like a problem :-)
[[BR]]18:27 < shachar> ok, thanks
[[BR]]18:28 < munzir> lars: the reporter would get the answer but others won't know about it which waste time for all of us. I love Qt support very much, respect you a lot but the way of handling bugs is not transparent to us at all
[[BR]]18:28 <@nadim> lars: what can we Arabeyes do better to facilitate more results, etc ?
[[BR]]18:28 < shachar> lars, what are the procedures if someone else wants to solve bugs in QT?
[[BR]]18:28 < shachar> does he need to assign copyright?
[[BR]]18:29 <+lars> munzir: I know this, and it's a known issue at TT, but it's not trivial to solve.
[[BR]]18:30 <+lars> the main reason being that we have commercial customers that send in bugs, and do not want to be mentioned on a public web page as being Qt customers.
[[BR]]18:30 < munzir> lars: At least can you allow us to file the bugs at kdelibs-qt and link them to www.arabeyes.org/OpenBugs and you check them from there? ;)
[[BR]]18:30 <@kuru> a simple way to solve this is to use a mailing-list address as the submitter
[[BR]]18:30 <@nadim> lars: may be having a 2-tier system - one public and one private :-)
[[BR]]18:30 <+lars> shachar: depends on the nature of the patch. For small things you can just submit the patch. For bigger stuff we need a copyright assignment.
[[BR]]18:30 <@kuru> for example, if you use bugs@arabeyes.. as the email address for Qt bug reports, everyone can see the correspondence.
[[BR]]18:31 <@nadim> since lars came in a bit late - we'll slip kuru's presentation to 14:45
[[BR]]18:31 <+lars> munzir: if I were the only one working on this it would be possible, but we have more developers and I can't force them all to use the kde bug system.
[[BR]]18:31 <@nadim> kuru: if you don't mind :-)
[[BR]]18:31 <@kuru> nadim: bleh.. I should have had yuyu do the moderation ;)
[[BR]]18:31 <@kuru> no problem.
[[BR]]18:32 <+lars> kuru: you could just cc the arabeyes mailing list. all replies from us will then get cc'ed there as well.
[[BR]]18:32 <@nadim> I think the point munzir is making is getting access to already reported bugs - ie. he has no visibility into those :-)
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[[BR]]18:32 < munzir> lars: how come kword depends on Qt and when I type a parenthesis in kmail it gives the reverse direction than in kowrd? Sometimes it's difficult for me to figure out the culprit component
[[BR]]18:32 <+lars> and even add a cc to the kde bug number.
[[BR]]18:33 <@yuyu> lars, can you take a look at those issues when you have time ?
[[BR]]18:33 <@yuyu> some of the mare really annoying
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[[BR]]18:33 < munzir> lars: yes nadim is right. I want to know all bugs open related to arabic so I don't waste my time tracking them again.
[[BR]]18:33 <+lars> munzir: kword basically does it's own text layouting. if you can't reproduce a problem in a Qt only app it's usually KDE who is to blame.
[[BR]]18:33 <@yuyu> lars: i have a question also about the QT .ts files
[[BR]]18:34 <@yuyu> lars: are they updated to the library. beacuse they are exactly the same from one version to another ;)
[[BR]]18:35 <+lars> yuyu: the ones shipped with Qt are seldom updated I have to admit.
[[BR]]18:35 <@yuyu> lars: there are no new strings between releases 
[[BR]]18:35 <@yuyu> hmmm
[[BR]]18:35 < munzir> lars: can I ask you to paste this text in a kmail composer window to see how is it disappear and accept this as a gift from me today
[[BR]]18:35 <@yuyu> i see ;)
[[BR]]18:35 < munzir> lars:  �$-1®¤®°®ª®¦®¨®£­ó ®¨®¤­ú­é ­ç®¤­ö®±­ç­ï ®¤®ª®¦®¨®£­ó ®¨®¤­ú­é ­ç®¤­ö®±­ç­ï ®¤®ª®¦®¨®£­ó ®¨®¤­ú­é ­ç®¤­ö®±­ç­ï ®¤®ª®¦®¨®£­ó ®¨®¤­ú­é ­ç®¤­ö®±­ç­ï ®¤®± 
[[BR]]18:35 < munzir>  
[[BR]]18:35 <@yuyu> lars, how can have acces to them ?
[[BR]]18:35 -!- mhlmi [~mhlmi@62.139.71.75] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]18:35 < cuco> munzir, kool....
[[BR]]18:36 < munzir> lars: I think you will like these easter-eggs like thingies
[[BR]]18:36 <+lars> munzir: why don't you send bugs to qt-bugs@kde.org with a cc to kde-bugnr@kde.org and the arabeyes mailing list?
[[BR]]18:36 -!- SeeKeR [~RooT@62.135.4.132] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]18:36 <+lars> munzir: just a second. my irc is not on utf8.
[[BR]]18:36 <+lars> munzir: try again ;-)
[[BR]]18:37 -!- shachar [~sun@line102-130.adsl.actcom.co.il] has quit ["Leaving"]
[[BR]]18:37 < munzir> lars:  �$-1®¤®°®ª®¦®¨®£­ó ®¨®¤­ú­é ­ç®¤­ö®±­ç­ï ®¤®ª®¦®¨®£­ó ®¨®¤­ú­é ­ç®¤­ö®±­ç­ï ®¤®ª®¦®¨®£­ó ®¨®¤­ú­é ­ç®¤­ö®±­ç­ï ®¤®ª®¦®¨®£­ó ®¨®¤­ú­é ­ç®¤­ö®±­ç­ï ®¤®± 
[[BR]]18:37 -!- shachar [~sun@line102-130.adsl.actcom.co.il] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]18:37 < munzir> lars you can copy it from here: http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=81858
[[BR]]18:38 <+lars> munzir: doesn't disappear here.
[[BR]]18:38 <+lars> yuyu: if you have updated translations send them to me, and I'll check them in.
[[BR]]18:38 < munzir> lars: please copy it from the link. be careful to copy it with no more spaces ;)
[[BR]]18:38 <@yuyu> lars: the pb is that i dont have the updated .ts files :-)
[[BR]]18:39 < cuco> lars, i can reproduce it here, on qt3.2.3
[[BR]]18:39 <+lars> munzir: hmmm... now I can reproduce it. ugly...
[[BR]]18:40 < munzir> lars: do you want a more uglier one? ;)
[[BR]]18:40 <+lars> and it works in Qts textedit example. Strange.
[[BR]]18:40 <@yuyu> lars: i dont kow where to find the .ts files that include all the library strings
[[BR]]18:40 <@yuyu> lars if I find them, I can update the translation of course :-)
[[BR]]18:40 <+lars> yuyu: ok, if that's the problem.
[[BR]]18:41 <+lars> yuyu: $QTDIR/translations/qt_untranslated.ts
[[BR]]18:41 <@yuyu> lars ?
[[BR]]18:41 < munzir> lars: copy this now
[[BR]]18:41 <@nadim> we need to wrap-up here
[[BR]]18:41 < munzir> �$-1­ù®®­ù®®­ù®®­ù®®­ù®®­ù®®­ù®®­ù®®­ù®®­ù®®­ù®®
[[BR]]18:41 < cuco> lars, how about having an option to set the location of the scroll bars on a QScrollView? or use the reverse layout system per widget instead of per "desktop"? this will be handy in khtml for example
[[BR]]18:41 <@yuyu> lars: yeah, this one does not seem to change between releases
[[BR]]18:42 <+lars> cuco: we're thinking about it for 4.0.
[[BR]]18:42 < munzir> lars: copy it in a composer and save it to the drafts folder you will see different letters ;)
[[BR]]18:42 <+lars> yuyu: I don't think we added a lot of strings lately.
[[BR]]18:42 <@nadim> lars: we _THANK_ you greatly for coming and giving us this opportunity to talk - we hope to continue the dialog we a number of our developers are avid Qt lovers - thanks again !!!
[[BR]]18:42 < munzir> lars: letter �$-1­ù becomes letter ­ô
[[BR]]18:42 <@nadim> s/we/as we
[[BR]]18:43 -!- ShErbO [~vircuser@62.135.49.177] has joined #ArabEyes
[[BR]]18:43 <+lars> I have to thank. I'll check out the bugs list on arabeyes and see what I can do.
[[BR]]18:43 <@nadim> munzir: are you sure you're using utf-8 (I can't see you arabic)
[[BR]]18:43 < munzir> lars: keep in mind those bugs are patened to me and this is why they are not public yet ;)
[[BR]]18:43 <@yuyu> lars: hmm. i see. but I think that one of the bugs poresent in that wiki page comes from a untranslated string. please take a look at the mentioned issue when you have time and let us know :-)
[[BR]]18:43 <+lars> btw, I'm often on irc (on #kdelounge), so if there's anything you can as well try to reach me there, or by private mail.
[[BR]]18:43 <@yuyu> lars: thank you :-)
[[BR]]18:43 <@nadim> lars: feel free to stop by here anytime you like - most are here talking about techie issues
[[BR]]18:44 <+lars> ok. I'm available for another while in case someone wants to talk to me in private.
[[BR]]18:44 <@nadim> lars: thanks again !!!
[[BR]]18:44 <@yuyu> lars: ok
[[BR]]18:44 <+lars> have fun for the rest of the party ;-)
[[BR]]18:44 < munzir> nadim: yes I am
[[BR]]18:44 <@nadim> kuru: you ready ?
[[BR]]18:44 < munzir> lars: thanks!
[[BR]]18:44 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-v lars] by yuyu
[[BR]]18:44 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-v walid] by yuyu
[[BR]]18:44 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+m] by kuru
[[BR]]18:45 <@yuyu> duali time
[[BR]]18:45 <@kuru> As many of you know, Duali (https://www.arabeyes.org/Duali) is the Arabic spell checker.
[[BR]]18:45 <@kuru> It has been on a disappointingly slow development path that will hopefully pick up sooner than later.
[[BR]]18:46 <@kuru> Currently, the released versions of Duali are written in Python, but any future release will be C++ based while the Python version will be deprecated.
[[BR]]18:47 <@kuru> One of the main reasons why Duali's development has been so dismally slow is the fact that a proper data set is not available to implement Duali as initially envisioned.
[[BR]]18:47 <@kuru> What this means is, duali was founded to employ a certain type of dictionary suitable for the Arabic language, a dictionary that is extremely compact.
[[BR]]18:48 <@kuru> A more explanatory text of this could be found here: https://www.arabeyes.org/~elzubeir/duali/duali.html
[[BR]]18:48 <@kuru> What we have today is a temporary solution.
[[BR]]18:49 <@kuru> What duali does when it parses a text is rather simple.
[[BR]]18:49 <@kuru> It takes the word, attempts to segment it to prefix/stem/suffix
[[BR]]18:49 <@kuru> and then verify if any of those combinations make up a valid prefix , stem and suffix.
[[BR]]18:50 <@kuru> while this method works, it does not work the way Duali is supposed to.
[[BR]]18:50 <@kuru> Creating a dictionary as the above referenced page explains, is a rather massive task and requires immense human resources.
[[BR]]18:51 <@kuru> Unfortunately no one (including Arabeyes) seems to find this to be an important venture and instead other projects (e.g. translation projects) seem to get the lion's share of the potential human resource for such a dictionary compilation.
[[BR]]18:51 <@kuru> My plea here is to get those who are interested in seeing a proper Arabic spell checker that is also capable of grammatical checks to seriously consider contributing to such a dictionary.
[[BR]]18:52 <@kuru> The dictionary would be GPL'ed and not BSD'ed as the code of Duali is.
[[BR]]18:52 <@kuru> Not to want to get involved in a license war, I believe the _data_ should be GPL'ed.
[[BR]]18:53 <@kuru> M Yousif (who is unfortunately) not present here today, has been working with me on the C++ port of Duali and we are very close to finishing it off. It's mostly my hectic schedule that has delayed things and it requires around 8 hours of continuous work to get an alpha release of the C++ port of Duali out.
[[BR]]18:53 <@kuru> ie. that is how close we are to a c++ release.
[[BR]]18:54 <@kuru> Now I will be taking your questions.
[[BR]]18:54 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-m] by kuru
[[BR]]18:54 < shachar> after digging into my rusty Arabic memory, I seem to recall several points
[[BR]]18:54 <@nadim> kuru: thanks - do people know how to contribute to this "dictionary" ?
[[BR]]18:55 < shachar> 1. Arabic's word transformations are pretty similar, though simpler than Hebrews
[[BR]]18:55 -!- phaeron [~phaeron@193.227.28.28] has quit ["Leaving"]
[[BR]]18:55 < shachar> 2. there was no second point (sad, isn't it)
[[BR]]18:55 <@kuru> nadim: there have been several discussions about this on the lists a long time back. It is a simple matter of a text file (as the referenced page explains)
[[BR]]18:55 < shachar> would looking at what hspell did help you out?
[[BR]]18:55 <@kuru> shachar: yes, it is very similar.
[[BR]]18:55 < shachar> as far as I know, they did machine harvesting of their dictionary
[[BR]]18:56 <@kuru> shachar: I have had several correspondences with the author of hspell in the early daus of duali. I am certain that we can eventually work something out to do both in one.
[[BR]]18:56 <@nadim> kuru: could you make a point to revive the topic and actually start a "project" to get it going on Arabeyes ?
[[BR]]18:56 <@kuru> nadim: I will have to dig through the archives, I'll email you when I find it -- but that page says it all.
[[BR]]18:56 < shachar> kuru: also bear this in mind in regard to integration
[[BR]]18:56 < shachar> KDE is already integrated with hspell. So is OpenOffice
[[BR]]18:57 <@kuru> shachar: my plan is to make duali easy to integrate with other applications.
[[BR]]18:57 < shachar> having a similar interface can speed that aspect
[[BR]]18:57 <@nadim> kuru: its not for my benefit :-) its to respark others' interest :-)
[[BR]]18:57 <@kuru> nadim: I would simply reference that page then ;)
[[BR]]18:57 < mako-sama> so, a text file with all the 'tarseefat' of words should be the goal
[[BR]]18:57 <@kuru> mako-sama: initially.
[[BR]]18:57 < mako-sama> err... tasreefat
[[BR]]18:58 <@kuru> mako-sama: what is needed are two thing.. first a master file that would contain the tasreef.
[[BR]]18:58 <@kuru> mako-sama: and then another that would actually contain the words with their reference number from the tastreef file
[[BR]]18:58 <@kuru> mako-sama: just as the url I mentioned explains.
[[BR]]18:58 <@nadim> heheh
[[BR]]18:58 < shachar> kuru, learning from the hspell experience, the problem with such a simple data structure might be that searches will not be quick enough
[[BR]]18:58 < mako-sama> kuru: a sample would be appreciated
[[BR]]18:59 < mako-sama> kuru: i'm sure we can start working on it asap
[[BR]]18:59 <@kuru> shachar: that's for me to worry about (I think I have a good plan) ;)
[[BR]]18:59 <@kuru> mako-sama: please do look at the url https://www.arabeyes.org/~elzubeir/duali/duali.html
[[BR]]18:59 <@nadim> shachar: are there benchmarks one needs to abide by ?
[[BR]]18:59 <@kuru> mako-sama: an example is at the bottom of the page
[[BR]]18:59 < munzir> kuru: I haven't check how duali works but thinks like writing a whole wordlist and now another word-list like things sees like reinventing the wheel. Aren't there any available resources we can use?
[[BR]]18:59 <@nadim> shachar: in terms of worst-case access/corrections, etc ?
[[BR]]18:59 <@kuru> munzir: no there aren't.
[[BR]]19:00 <@kuru> munzir: if you find any, please do point them out to me.
[[BR]]19:00 < Uniball> kuruwhere can I find the design papers about duali ?
[[BR]]19:00 < Uniball> kuru: where can I find the design papers about duali ?
[[BR]]19:00 < Uniball> damn the tab completion
[[BR]]19:00 < shachar> I don't know. I'm vaugly quoting things I heard once
[[BR]]19:00 <@nadim> kuru: would this new duali dictionary also result in a complete list of ALL the valid arabic words ?/
[[BR]]19:00 <@yuyu> kuru: interested to write a fron-end for duali ?
[[BR]]19:01 < shachar> talking to nadav or tzafrir could be very beneficial
[[BR]]19:01 <@kuru> nadim: no, it would only include a list of all valid arabic roots, in addition to static words, such as foreign words, names, etc.
[[BR]]19:01 <@kuru> yuyu: ?
[[BR]]19:01 <@yuyu> kuru: somekind of  primitive text-editor ?
[[BR]]19:01 <@kuru> yuyu: no, I am hoping the first integration would be w/ katoob via Uniball ;)
[[BR]]19:01 <@yuyu> kuru: a (very) basic text-editor shipped with duali
[[BR]]19:01 <@kuru> Uniball: there isn't any 'whitepaper' if that's what you're asking.
[[BR]]19:01 <@nadim> kuru: so getting an arabic wordlist would be possible given you give it all the known prefix/suffix and run duali on it, no ? :-)
[[BR]]19:02 <@kuru> yuyu: that will probably be possible once the C++ port is released.
[[BR]]19:02 <@yuyu> kuru: okey dokey. i was about to prpose my help ;)
[[BR]]19:02 <@kuru> yuyu: help then!
[[BR]]19:02 < Uniball> kuru: yes, i know where exactly to insert code to support duali
[[BR]]19:02 <@kuru> nadim: correct.
[[BR]]19:02 <@nadim> shachar: any license issue given duali is BSD with hspell experiance ?
[[BR]]19:02 <@kuru> nadim: provided I have such a data set, I can produce a list of every possible Arabic word ever ;)
[[BR]]19:03 < Uniball> kuru so I'll have to research from scratch to understand how to do what you did in duali
[[BR]]19:03 <@nadim> kuru: excellent - I'm all for it then :-)
[[BR]]19:03 <@kuru> Uniball: not really.
[[BR]]19:03 <@kuru> Uniball: I will not release the c++ port without a full document that will explain all of that.
[[BR]]19:04 < mako-sama> very nice
[[BR]]19:04 < shachar> nadim, I'm not sure. The hspell web site, however, is at http://www.ivrix.org.il/projects/spell-checker/
[[BR]]19:04 <@nadim> kuru: you noted needing 8 hours to complete a C++ port - when can we reasonable expect an alpha knowing there is demand/need for just such an app ?
[[BR]]19:04 < Uniball> kuru then if you pass away before you release it, we'll have to start from scratch ;)
[[BR]]19:04 <@yuyu> kurutoo late now :-)
[[BR]]19:04 <@kuru> nadim: the answer is, I don't know -- my schedule has been rather unpredictable.
[[BR]]19:04 <@kuru> Uniball: not really -- ask M.Yousif ;)
[[BR]]19:05 <@nadim> Uniball: hehe
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[[BR]]19:05 < Uniball> kuru 'd you object to adding/including/shipping non BSD licensed tools with duali ?
[[BR]]19:05 < Uniball> nadim:  ;)
[[BR]]19:05 -!- adil_hi [adil_hi@ool-4357718e.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]19:05 <@kuru> Uniball: no, as long as they can be easily identified.
[[BR]]19:05 <@kuru> Uniball: but I would certainly prefer they are not.
[[BR]]19:06 <@kuru> Uniball: what kind of 'tools'?
[[BR]]19:06 < Uniball> kuru It's just a question.
[[BR]]19:06 <@kuru> Uniball: well, the answer is, I don't mind ;)
[[BR]]19:06 < Uniball> kuru thanks Mr. kuru for answering me ;)
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[[BR]]19:07 <@nadim> kuru: beyond time and the afore mentioned dictionary - what are the biggest obsticles ?
[[BR]]19:07 <@kuru> nadim: nothing else.
[[BR]]19:07 < DarKnesS_WolF> ok guys seems i`ll go .
[[BR]]19:07 <@nadim> kuru: and can you tell us about aspell and possibly intigurting with it ?
[[BR]]19:07 <@kuru> nadim: if there is a dictionary data set, we are good to go.
[[BR]]19:07 < DarKnesS_WolF> c u later Uniball :)
[[BR]]19:07 < Uniball> nadim: what a question
[[BR]]19:07 < Uniball> DarKnesS_WolF: cya
[[BR]]19:08 <@kuru> the only thing we can do wrt aspell is to create wrapper API's that is similar to that of aspell -- for integration purposes.
[[BR]]19:08 <@nadim> Uniball: I'm trying to see if the algorithm used has been bullet-proofed
[[BR]]19:08 <@kuru> the same goes for the CLI 
[[BR]]19:09 < Uniball> nadim: no, i meant the 1st question about the obsticles
[[BR]]19:09 <@kuru> Aspell is affix based, which is simply not sufficient for Arabic.
[[BR]]19:10 < Uniball> kuru what's affix based ?
[[BR]]19:10 <@nadim> kuru: sorry to harp on this - is M.Yousif able to complete the mentioned/required 8 hours left or those require your involvment ?
[[BR]]19:10 -!- Osax [~aaazsasa@ppp-150-237.terra.net.lb] has joined #Arabeyes
[[BR]]19:10 -!- DarKnesS_WolF [~ssssssss@217.139.202.173] has left #arabeyes []
[[BR]]19:10 < Uniball> Osax: salam
[[BR]]19:10 < Osax> Salam all :)
[[BR]]19:10 <@yuyu> Osax, salam senor :-)
[[BR]]19:10 <@kuru> Uniball: essentially the same thing as what duali is doing right now
[[BR]]19:10 <@kuru> Uniball: root words, prefix, suffix.
[[BR]]19:11 <@nadim> kuru: can you also tell us a bit about what sort of response you've seen with regard to duali ?
[[BR]]19:11 <@kuru> Uniball: except that in duali's case, it's "stems" and not "roots"
[[BR]]19:11 < Osax> wow.. all people are here :)
[[BR]]19:11 < Osax> nadim, salaaaaaaaam :)
[[BR]]19:11 <@nadim> Osax: salamain
[[BR]]19:11 <@kuru> the response has been rather negligible and I get the impression that only a handful care.
[[BR]]19:11 < Uniball> kuru i don't understand this, we'll have a long talk soon
[[BR]]19:11 <@nadim> kuru: you attribute that to need or to lack of marketing ?
[[BR]]19:12 <@kuru> Even during a meeting with Sun (in Dubai) about OpenOffice Arabic needs, they simply said (politely) that nobody cares about Arabic spell checking
[[BR]]19:12 <@kuru> because no one makes Arabic spelling mistakes and only typo's.
[[BR]]19:12 <@yuyu> heh
[[BR]]19:12 < Osax> kuru, charles of OOo was asking me about progress
[[BR]]19:12 <@kuru> yuyu: that's what they said!
[[BR]]19:12 <@nadim> hehehe - how absurd - they must have not seen me type :-)
[[BR]]19:12 < Osax> kuru, maybe he can help with that regard
[[BR]]19:13 <@kuru> I was tryig to pursuade them to put some of their resources into the data set.
[[BR]]19:13 <@kuru> Osax: certainly -- any help would be appreciated. I was under the impression that you were going to help ;)
[[BR]]19:13 < Uniball> someone from the AUC asked me about a spell checker and arabic proofing tools ;)
[[BR]]19:13 < Osax> kuru, yeah, but i'm in a vacation now :)
[[BR]]19:13 <@kuru> the main problem with such a data set and getting volunteers is that it's a very long-term thing and very hard to see progress as you work.
[[BR]]19:14 <@kuru> ie. you cannot see the fruits of your work until the project is almost completed.
[[BR]]19:14 < munzir> kuru: can you explain in a simple way why wordlist couldn't be used for duali?
[[BR]]19:14 <@kuru> but most of the code that can deal with this has already been written.
[[BR]]19:14 <@kuru> munzir: the wordlist is a list of English words translated to Arabic.
[[BR]]19:14 < munzir> kuru: why this data set in not like an Arabic-English dictionary then?
[[BR]]19:15 <@kuru> munzir: it does not contain root or a list of what their possible tasreefs are.
[[BR]]19:15 <@kuru> munzir: and it is not possible to derive a list of roots from a list of Arabic words without harakat.
[[BR]]19:15 <@nadim> kuru: back to aspell (since its such a standard now) - have there been recent talks with its authors about adding the necessary changes to aspell to accomidate duali (I'm sure it will benefit other languages, no ?)
[[BR]]19:15 < Osax> Jad, nice interview in Future today :)
[[BR]]19:15 <@yuyu> kuru: is it possible to start with a small set of data and then make it richer by 'practice' ?
[[BR]]19:15 < mako-sama> using root words and thier tasreefs can make not only a spell checker but a grammar checker too
[[BR]]19:15 <@kuru> munzir: I have tried that in the earliest days, 'gendic' (look duali project page) does that exactly. It parses the wordlist and tries to egenerate a list of roots.
[[BR]]19:15 <@nadim> munzir: we will be able to get a list of arabic words from duali's dictionary though (not vice-versa)
[[BR]]19:16 <@kuru> yuyu: sure it is possible.
[[BR]]19:16 < mako-sama> which is essential for OCR, i'd say :)
[[BR]]19:16 <@kuru> yuyu: but it is not easy to see progress.
[[BR]]19:16 < munzir> kuru: Ok but why don't you let your spellchecker just use and Arabic-English dict that contains all the words inlcuding roots, and all tasreefs in one place, performance?
[[BR]]19:16 <@kuru> yuyu: for example, you owuld have to test on a pre-defined set of texts.
[[BR]]19:17 <@kuru> munzir: not sure I understand.
[[BR]]19:17 <@kuru> munzir: ah.. gotcha.
[[BR]]19:17 <@yuyu> kuru: or on any text, given that you do the 'practice' by a human, no ?
[[BR]]19:17 <@kuru> munzir: that is essentially what duali currently does.
[[BR]]19:17 <@nadim> munzir: keep in mind there is NO arabic->english list
[[BR]]19:17 <@nadim> we need to wrap-up
[[BR]]19:18 <@kuru> munzir: but that is a) not as accurate as what I'm proposing b) results in a huge data set that is not necessary c) doesn't make use of Arabic's superb ability to be computerized.
[[BR]]19:18 <@yuyu> kuru: practice -> visual checking or whatever
[[BR]]19:18 < munzir> kuru: so the point is if we have an arabic-english list all the problems would be solved?
[[BR]]19:18 <@nadim> kuru: thank you very much for you time and hard work on duali (we all really want to see a release :-) now get back to moderating :-)
[[BR]]19:18 <@kuru> munzir: no it's not.
[[BR]]19:18 <@kuru> munzir: you don't understand the problem ;)
[[BR]]19:18 <@kuru> ok, I'm being kicked out ;)
[[BR]]19:18  * kuru shuts up
[[BR]]19:18 < munzir> ah got you kuru
[[BR]]19:18 < srtxg> what were the reasons that made aspell unsuitable for Arabic?
[[BR]]19:18 <@nadim> Uniball: is next in about 10 minutes
[[BR]]19:19 < cuco> srtxg, we had the same problem in hebrew, we realized that using aspell would make it consume a LOT of memory
[[BR]]19:19 < Uniball> ok i'll brb after 10 min
[[BR]]19:20 <@nadim> cuco: I think we need to aproach aspell's authors and ask for some hooks/changes to bring support for our languages
[[BR]]19:20 <@kuru> nadim: you shut me down before the next time slow was up? ;)
[[BR]]19:20 < srtxg> But next (currnetly in alpha) version of aspell uses affix compression; hspell is planing to merge with aspell (hebrew dictionnary for aspell6 is on aspell site already)
[[BR]]19:20 <@nadim> kuru: there is a break :-)
[[BR]]19:20 < cuco> nadim, how about plurals? will not help
[[BR]]19:20 < shachar> I have a question to the forum. what does your locale typically show?
[[BR]]19:20 < olimar> Ah it's kurus talk now I suppose
[[BR]]19:20 < srtxg> The big argument in favor of using aspell is that then there is no need to handle the problem of integration with applications
[[BR]]19:21 <@kuru> shachar: en_US.UTF-8  here
[[BR]]19:21 -!- ashraf [~ashraf@213.185.122.17] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]19:21 < shachar> kuru - for all of them?
[[BR]]19:21 <@kuru> shachar: yeah
[[BR]]19:21 < olimar> ar_EG UTF-8 here
[[BR]]19:21 <@nadim> kuru: might be time to touch base with aspell again I guess
[[BR]]19:21 < olimar> what an irony ;)
[[BR]]19:21 <@nadim> kuru: esp. based on what srtxg just noted.
[[BR]]19:21 <@kuru> I don't use an Arabic interface, so that's why.
[[BR]]19:21 < shachar> no one is using iso-8859-6 here?
[[BR]]19:21 <@kuru> nadim: I am aware of that, but don't think it's that simple.
[[BR]]19:22 <@nadim> kuru: worth starting a conversation with them ?
[[BR]]19:22 < cuco> srtxg, but if the spell checker acts as aspell, the support is trivial. hspell does this already. 
[[BR]]19:22 <@kuru> nadim: it's easier to worry about integrating with other applications than merging with aspell
[[BR]]19:22 < olimar> nadim as long as the goals and methods don't meet I am not against having a separate attempt which is mayber better
[[BR]]19:22 < mako-sama> why would i use 8859-6 if i have utf8 ?
[[BR]]19:22 <@nadim> kuru: is what we need applicaple to the hebrew language ?
[[BR]]19:22 <@kuru> nadim: for the most part, yes.
[[BR]]19:22 <@nadim> shachar: stick to utf-8 :-)
[[BR]]19:22 < shachar> I'll do that when I get rid of legacy
[[BR]]19:22 < olimar> and if possible use an Arabic interface ;)
[[BR]]19:22 <@kuru> nadim: but as usual, Arabic always needs a little more (just like bidi (ar+he) + shaping (ar only) )
[[BR]]19:22 <@nadim> kuru: then maybe we should do that - have a united requirements list from aspell
[[BR]]19:23 < shachar> kuru, I'm not sure about that
[[BR]]19:23 < shachar> Arabic is a semitic language
[[BR]]19:23 < Osax> kuru, urdu needs shaping too, and farsi?
[[BR]]19:23 < shachar> Hebrew was once, but since got "renovated", which makes it closer to Polish today
[[BR]]19:23 < shachar> as a result - it's a mess
[[BR]]19:23 < mako-sama> Osax: talking about arabic scripts :)
[[BR]]19:24 <@nadim> kuru: do please take over (meeting wise) - I need to do a few things and will be back later
[[BR]]19:24 < mako-sama> i thought the new hebrew is close to french :p
[[BR]]19:24 <@kuru> nadim: whatever happened to yuyu? ;)
[[BR]]19:24 <@nadim> in about 5 minutes its Mohammed Sameer and katoob
[[BR]]19:24 < mako-sama> actually.. that's how it feels.. french
[[BR]]19:24 < srtxg> display is not very relevant to spell checking; word recognition is (that is, manipulation of strings of bytes)
[[BR]]19:24 <@nadim> kuru: not sure ;-)
[[BR]]19:24 < Osax> mako-sama, 'he' isn't arabic ;)
[[BR]]19:24 < olimar> Salam Osax
[[BR]]19:24 <@yuyu> kuru: i'm /msg-ing with lars ;)
[[BR]]19:24 < Osax> olimar, salamain
[[BR]]19:24 <@kuru> Osax: languages that use Arabic-based scripts are not necessarily semitic languages.
[[BR]]19:24 < olimar> yuyu is not Arabic? oh man I knew it...
[[BR]]19:25 < munzir> shachar:ar_SA.UTF-8 for me but don't understand why?
[[BR]]19:25 < Osax> kuru, no idea about 'semitic'
[[BR]]19:25 -!- cuco [~cuco@bzq-218-235-242.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
[[BR]]19:25 <@yuyu> olimar, ??
[[BR]]19:25 < olimar> ;)
[[BR]]19:25 < shachar> I'm in the middle of a semi-flame war with CodeWeavers' cheif locale guru about a change to wine
[[BR]]19:25 < olimar> only kidding
[[BR]]19:25 <@kuru> Osax: Arabic and Hebrew are semitic, Farsi is not.
[[BR]]19:25  * Osax is behind a modem/very bad connection...
[[BR]]19:25 < Osax> kuru, ok :)
[[BR]]19:26 < olimar> the arabic script has nothing to do with the languages who use it
[[BR]]19:26 <@kuru> *** 5 minutes to M.Sameer's SLOT **
[[BR]]19:26 < shachar> kuru, all of my linguistic friends will tell you that Hebrew isn't truely semitic any more either
[[BR]]19:26 < mako-sama> i kind of agree with shachar 
[[BR]]19:26 < olimar> old turkish used the Araic script but it was an Indo-european language!!!
[[BR]]19:26 < Uniball> kuru hey ok ok!
[[BR]]19:26 < shachar> biblical Hebrew is semitic
[[BR]]19:26 < mako-sama> yes
[[BR]]19:26 <@kuru> shachar: I don't know enough about Hebrew to be able to comment.
[[BR]]19:26 < shachar> modern Hebrew is not
[[BR]]19:26 <@yuyu> shachar, you mean lots of yiddish stuff ?
[[BR]]19:26 < Uniball> kuru thanks for reminding me
[[BR]]19:26 < olimar> shachar what is yiddish?
[[BR]]19:26 < mako-sama> the modern hebrew is close to.. french :p (or polish?)
[[BR]]19:27 < shachar> no, Hebrew has been dead for about 2000 years
[[BR]]19:27 < shachar> only used for prayer
[[BR]]19:27 < shachar> when the zionist movement began, so did a movement to revive the language
[[BR]]19:27 < shachar> unfortunetly, the person doing most of the reviving mostly spoke Polish
[[BR]]19:27 < olimar> shachar, as you seem to know about hebrew etc... pls tell me what is yiddish?
[[BR]]19:27 < mako-sama> yeah.. then that guy reinvented the language
[[BR]]19:28 < shachar> hence - most of the constructs in modern Hebrew are taken from polish
[[BR]]19:28 <@yuyu> olimar, hebrew spoken in eastern europe
[[BR]]19:28 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+v Uniball] by kuru
[[BR]]19:28 < shachar> Yiddish is a mix of Hebrew, German, Russian
[[BR]]19:28 <@kuru> ok, 2 minutes to go
[[BR]]19:28 < mako-sama> oh
[[BR]]19:28 < shachar> written in Hebrew letters
[[BR]]19:28 <@kuru> wrap it up ;)
[[BR]]19:28 < olimar> ok
[[BR]]19:28 < Osax> abdo, you alive? :)
[[BR]]19:28 < mako-sama> aha
[[BR]]19:28 < lars> olimar: yiddish is some slang language. Basically a mixture between hebrew, german and some other european languages. It's written using the hebrew alphabet though.
[[BR]]19:28 <+Uniball> heh, a voice ? that's the 1st time for me
[[BR]]19:28 < shachar> and used by the people who did not speak Hebrew expcept for prayer
[[BR]]19:28 < olimar> lars, ic
[[BR]]19:28 < mako-sama> that's what yiddish is
[[BR]]19:28 <+Uniball> shachar: may I ask, any plans for a library written in C/whatever language for hspell ?
[[BR]]19:29 < shachar> I don't know
[[BR]]19:29 < olimar> mako-sama thanx for your great and complete information about yiddish ;)
[[BR]]19:29 < shachar> you had better ask on the Ivrix mailing list
[[BR]]19:29 <@kuru> Uniball: hspell is already a mixture of perl and C
[[BR]]19:29 < mako-sama> olimar: i was wondering myself :p
[[BR]]19:29 <+Uniball> shachar: thanks
[[BR]]19:29 < shachar> np
[[BR]]19:29 < olimar> d~b
[[BR]]19:29 < abdo> Osax: salam, of course I'm alive
[[BR]]19:29 <+Uniball> kuru yes but you have to invoke an app to check the words
[[BR]]19:30 < Osax> abdo, hehe.. just kidding. I meant you are here :)
[[BR]]19:30 <@yuyu> kuru: set -m or whatever
[[BR]]19:30 <@kuru> *** 15:30 - 16:00    Mohammed Sameer        (Arabeyes - Katoob) ***
[[BR]]19:30 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+m] by kuru
[[BR]]19:30 <@kuru> Uniball: the floor is yours
[[BR]]19:30 <@yuyu> Uniball, your turn :-)
[[BR]]19:31 <+Uniball> kuru hate this :|
[[BR]]19:31 <+Uniball> ok
[[BR]]19:31 <+Uniball> !ladies and gentlemen,
[[BR]]19:31 <+Uniball> what to say ? donno
[[BR]]19:31 <+Uniball> ok
[[BR]]19:32 <+Uniball> i don't think that i've contributed much yet to the OSS movements
[[BR]]19:32 <+Uniball> also i hate to talk about myself and what i did/do
[[BR]]19:32 <+Uniball> but nadim forced me to do so ;)
[[BR]]19:33 <+Uniball> being here now, I'll have to talk about an arabeyes project that i've developed and maintaining
[[BR]]19:33 <+Uniball> katoob as you know, is a unicode/bidi aware text editor
[[BR]]19:34 <+Uniball> it was desigened for the needs of the Arabic user
[[BR]]19:34 <+Uniball> currently I'm working on supporting more languages
[[BR]]19:34 <+Uniball> like hebrew with the help of cuco, he isn't here ATM
[[BR]]19:35 <+Uniball> you may ask me why not integrate the features i need into gedit for ex.
[[BR]]19:35 <+Uniball> gtk2 was released with good arabic support, thanks gtk+ team.
[[BR]]19:36 <+Uniball> gnome2 was still under development
[[BR]]19:36 <+Uniball> and i was sure that i'll have different points of view than gedit team
[[BR]]19:36 <+Uniball> though i started coding early, but gnome2 was released 1st
[[BR]]19:37 <+Uniball> and thanks to kuru, we now have the only gtk app beginning with a "K" letter :-)
[[BR]]19:37 <+Uniball> the bidi algorithm was implemented in katoob before gtk itself
[[BR]]19:38 <+Uniball> though i'll have to drop it into the next release and depend on gtk to do it
[[BR]]19:38 <+Uniball> and some other small features'll be removed like the ability to force the direction to RTL/LTR as I can't do it under gtk 2.4 anymore
[[BR]]19:39 <+Uniball> currently i'm trying to tie katoob to arabeyes since it's the only community there interested in OSS for the arabic user
[[BR]]19:40 <+Uniball> utilizing the word list project, the CVS version of katoob can now query arabeyes dict server to translate from english to arabic, though this an be changed, but it's the default
[[BR]]19:40 <+Uniball> many things are really planned, They are in the TODO list, but what i aim is a lightweight app as much as I ca
[[BR]]19:40 -!- Osax [~aaazsasa@ppp-150-237.terra.net.lb] has quit [Client Quit]
[[BR]]19:40 <+Uniball> with features for the benefit of all ppl out there either speaking arabic or not
[[BR]]19:41 <+Uniball> donno what to say more.
[[BR]]19:41 <+Uniball> so thank you
[[BR]]19:41  * Uniball is raising his hat to all ppl here 
[[BR]]19:41 <@yuyu> ok thanks for the presentation
[[BR]]19:41 <+Uniball> and to all GNU/Linux lovers
[[BR]]19:41 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-m] by kuru
[[BR]]19:41 <@yuyu> time for Q/A
[[BR]]19:41 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-v Uniball] by kuru
[[BR]]19:41 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-v Uniball] by yuyu
[[BR]]19:41 < Uniball> and OSS lovers too
[[BR]]19:42 < Uniball> 2 guys removing the voice from me ? you really hate me much ;)
[[BR]]19:42 < mako-sama> i'd like to say thank you for tha great peice of app :)
[[BR]]19:42 < Uniball> may I add another point ?
[[BR]]19:42 < mako-sama> and.. thank you too because katoon isn't gedit
[[BR]]19:42 < mako-sama> katoob, even
[[BR]]19:42 < shachar> Uniball, why not let the user override the paragraph direction?
[[BR]]19:42 < Uniball> i was working on a win32 port, though it's buggy but it works, If anyone is interested in it, please shoot!
[[BR]]19:42 < Uniball> mako-sama: thanks
[[BR]]19:42 < shachar> the fact that gtk2 is brain dead in that respect shouldn't stop you
[[BR]]19:43 <@kuru> Uniball: _when_ are we going to see a katoob release?
[[BR]]19:43 <@kuru> Uniball: we've been seeing a lot of cvs commits but no release.
[[BR]]19:43 < Uniball> shachar: because the gtk 2.4 API aren't working anymore, however the user can insert unicode control chars. to force it
[[BR]]19:43 < mako-sama> last months i reinstalled linux on this box.. and i didn't install antyhing that begins with gnome-*
[[BR]]19:43 < Uniball> kuru soon, maybe this month
[[BR]]19:43 <@nadim> Uniball: great job and thanks a million for doing this - I know you didn't want to :-)
[[BR]]19:43 < mako-sama> gedit wasn't an option because it depends on some genome libs
[[BR]]19:43 <@nadim> I'll be back in an hour
[[BR]]19:43 < Uniball> nadim: i'll kill you when I meet you
[[BR]]19:43 <@nadim> hehhe
[[BR]]19:44 -!- nadim is now known as sursur
[[BR]]19:44 < mako-sama> katoob is a great solution for non-gnome users ;)
[[BR]]19:44 < Uniball> it's included in phaeronix
[[BR]]19:44 < mako-sama> and above all, my mom likes it :)
[[BR]]19:44  * abdo sprays the sursur with pif-paf
[[BR]]19:45 < Uniball> mako-sama: thanks a million
[[BR]]19:45 < mako-sama> thank you ;)
[[BR]]19:45 -!- DJ-KING [~acidtears@217.52.244.1] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
[[BR]]19:46 <@kuru> Uniball: when are we going to see a deb package in debian's apt repos for katoob?
[[BR]]19:46 < mako-sama> i can't wait to see duali working with katoob ;)
[[BR]]19:46 < olimar> I like katoob very much but now with gedit being also a good editor what do you think makes/ will make katoob a distinguishable app?
[[BR]]19:46 < Uniball> kuru this requires 2 things, A release which'll be soon ISA, and a DD do sponsor me ;)
[[BR]]19:47 < mako-sama> olimar: katoob doesn't depend on gnome 
[[BR]]19:47 -!- Jad [~Jad@82.116.136.57] has quit [Connection timed out]
[[BR]]19:47 <@kuru> Uniball: XSnack will be more than happy to do it -- and even if he's busy, folks in #debian-devel are nice (in their own way) ;)
[[BR]]19:47 < Uniball> olimar: because it's best suited for arabic, the keyboard emulator'll allow you to type even if you don't have an arabic keyboard configured
[[BR]]19:47 < Uniball> kuru ;)
[[BR]]19:48 < olimar> cool
[[BR]]19:48 < Uniball> i have an idea to integrate arabizer, but nothing has been done yet
[[BR]]19:48 < olimar> mako, it depends on gtk...
[[BR]]19:48 <@yuyu> Uniball, ah, that would be cool
[[BR]]19:49 < Uniball> olimar: you can even disable antialiasing for it, as it may prevent pango from joining arabic letters correctly
[[BR]]19:49 -!- blacksadness is now known as blacksadness|sle
[[BR]]19:49 < mako-sama> olimar: yes.. gtk, not gnome
[[BR]]19:49 -!- daif [daif@213.184.175.51] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]19:49 < olimar> mako, gnome will become with 3.0 only some specs on paper ;) and every widget will be part of gtk
[[BR]]19:50 < mako-sama> olimar: gedit depends on gnomelib and gconf and some other gnome crap
[[BR]]19:50 < olimar> please don't say gnome crap
[[BR]]19:50 < mako-sama> ok
[[BR]]19:50 < mako-sama> s/crap/stuff
[[BR]]19:50 < abdo> olimar: testy about gnome?
[[BR]]19:50 < Uniball> gnome is heavy and bloated
[[BR]]19:50 < olimar> ppl are working hard on these libs I see myself and how hard I worked and I respect everyone who works hard on any software
[[BR]]19:50 < olimar> from KDE to Gnustep
[[BR]]19:50 < Uniball> olimar: heard about project goneme ?
[[BR]]19:51 < mako-sama> olimar: i didn't say they're crappy crap :)
[[BR]]19:51 < olimar> Uniball yep heared
[[BR]]19:51 < mako-sama> i respect gnome and KDE
[[BR]]19:51 < Uniball> olimar: compare the memory used by gedit vs. katoob
[[BR]]19:51 < mako-sama> both are great projects
[[BR]]19:51 < olimar> Uniball yes memory footprint is a big plus for non gnome apps
[[BR]]19:52 < Uniball> though it's using much more memory than emacs, but i'll try to reduce this ;)
[[BR]]19:52 < olimar> I don't say gnome apps are Wonderful
[[BR]]19:52 < olimar> but every app has good and bad points
[[BR]]19:52 < mako-sama> sure
[[BR]]19:52 < Uniball> olimar: agree here
[[BR]]19:52 < mako-sama> that's why katoob is good
[[BR]]19:52 < olimar> KDE 2.x was a disaster in stability and performance but 3.x is very good software
[[BR]]19:52 < Uniball> but what i really hate is: I have 256 MB of RAM, Why a single app is using half of them ?
[[BR]]19:53 < Uniball> the same applies to CPU cycles!
[[BR]]19:53 < olimar> so it's at the end working ppl and the output that comes out
[[BR]]19:53 < Uniball> though i still respect all the OSS developers/lovers/users.......
[[BR]]19:53 < mako-sama> same here
[[BR]]19:54 <@yuyu> is samy or yousef raffa around ?
[[BR]]19:54 < mako-sama> all respect
[[BR]]19:54 <@yuyu> uh oh
[[BR]]19:55 < Uniball> samy isn't here, I wanted him ;)
[[BR]]19:55 <@yuyu> Uniball, his slot is the next one ;)
[[BR]]19:55 < mako-sama> prayer time, maybe :)
[[BR]]19:55 <@yuyu> along with yousef raffa
[[BR]]19:56 < Uniball> yuyu: bad that i'll have to run
[[BR]]19:56 < Uniball> but hey! L[o]nely is logging ;)
[[BR]]19:57 -!- NewComer [~somebody@62.135.96.62] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]19:57  * yuyu is searching for samy or yousef raffa
[[BR]]19:58 < Uniball> samy aybe fighting to boot freebsd :)
[[BR]]19:58 < Uniball> no offense, joke
[[BR]]19:58 <@yuyu> hehehe
[[BR]]19:58 <@yuyu> Uniball, will you stay a few minutes more ?
[[BR]]19:58 -!- gloonie [~gloonie@user-0cdf3ou.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]19:59 < Uniball> yuyu: brushing my hair to run out of here ;)
[[BR]]19:59 <@yuyu> heh
[[BR]]19:59 < Uniball> yuyu: but if you need me, I can stay
[[BR]]19:59 -!- CodeWarrior [~hisham@home.hisham.cc] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]19:59 < CodeWarrior> Salamat.
[[BR]]19:59 < Uniball> CodeWarrior: salamz
[[BR]]19:59 <@yuyu> Uniball, as you like, since the Saudi LUG are not here yet you can continue to talk about katoob 
[[BR]]19:59 < CodeWarrior> (=
[[BR]]19:59 < mako-sama> salam
[[BR]]19:59 < abdo> CodeWarrior: welcome
[[BR]]19:59 <@yuyu> CodeWarrior, salam
[[BR]]20:00 < CodeWarrior> abdo: (=
[[BR]]20:00 < CodeWarrior> yuyu: (=
[[BR]]20:00 < CodeWarrior> mako-sama: (=
[[BR]]20:00 < Uniball> yuyu: (=
[[BR]]20:00 <@yuyu> Uniball, you know, katoob was the first project i wanted to contribute to
[[BR]]20:00 <@yuyu> Uniball, and I finally i wrote bayani ;)
[[BR]]20:00 < CodeWarrior> yebyen: you;re here? thats interesting. (=
[[BR]]20:00 < Uniball> yuyu: then please do
[[BR]]20:00 < abdo> ok who's up next?
[[BR]]20:00 < mako-sama> saudi LUG is next
[[BR]]20:00 <@yuyu> Uniball, now i'm stuck with bayani ;)
[[BR]]20:00 < Uniball> yuyu: i'm really busy now, If you can write a line of code, I'll be glad
[[BR]]20:01 < gloonie> Salam
[[BR]]20:01 <@yuyu> mako-sama, they are absent, it seems...
[[BR]]20:01 <@yuyu> gloonie, salam
[[BR]]20:01 < mako-sama> yeah.. not here
[[BR]]20:01 < abdo> Youssif is not here?
[[BR]]20:01 <@yuyu> Uniball, who will take care of poor little bayani then ?
[[BR]]20:01 < mako-sama> Uniball: katoob is written in C, right ?
[[BR]]20:02 < Uniball> mako-sama: yes
[[BR]]20:02 < Uniball> yuyu: kuruLogger'll
[[BR]]20:02 <@yuyu> hehehe
[[BR]]20:02 < Uniball> ok, i gtg now
[[BR]]20:02 < mako-sama> I might take a look at katoob's code later.. it'll be a good practice for me
[[BR]]20:02 <@yuyu> Uniball, thanks for the presentation
[[BR]]20:02 < mako-sama> if i have time -_-
[[BR]]20:03 <@yuyu> Uniball, and for everything else ;-)
[[BR]]20:03 < Uniball> mako-sama: great, you are in then ;)
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[[BR]]20:03 < Uniball> thanks guys
[[BR]]20:03 < Uniball> gtg
[[BR]]20:03 <@yuyu> salam
[[BR]]20:03 < Uniball> bye and enjoy
[[BR]]20:04 < Uniball> salam
[[BR]]20:04 <@yuyu> ok - it's a free form until the suadi lug peopl show
[[BR]]20:04 < mako-sama> ok
[[BR]]20:04 < mako-sama> then.. yuyu.. about bayani :)
[[BR]]20:04 <@yuyu> or until Carlos Perello Marin's slot 
[[BR]]20:05 <@yuyu> mako-sama, wait for the presentation ;)
[[BR]]20:05 < mako-sama> I know you'll talk later, but I want to ask now :)
[[BR]]20:05 <@yuyu> mako-sama, ok.
[[BR]]20:05 < mako-sama> or.. i'll leave it for later ;)
[[BR]]20:05 <@yuyu> as you like 
[[BR]]20:05 < mako-sama> hehe
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[[BR]]20:06 < mako-sama> i havn't used bayani before or needed to use it
[[BR]]20:06 < daif> �$-1­ó®¤­ç®¥
[[BR]]20:06 < mako-sama> i wanted to know.. when you wrote it, who did you think are the target users ?
[[BR]]20:06 <@yuyu> mako-sama, those questions are answered in the presentation
[[BR]]20:06 < mako-sama> :)
[[BR]]20:06 < abdo> college students maybe..?
[[BR]]20:06 < mako-sama> we'll see later then :)
[[BR]]20:06 <@yuyu> wait and see ;)
[[BR]]20:07 < abdo> k
[[BR]]20:07 <@yuyu> abdo, you are in .lb now ?
[[BR]]20:07 < abdo> yuyu: yes
[[BR]]20:07 <@yuyu> abdo, holidays ?
[[BR]]20:07 < abdo> yuyu: summer semester :)
[[BR]]20:07 <@yuyu> heh. good luck man
[[BR]]20:08 <@yuyu> abdo, those things dont exist here ;)
[[BR]]20:08 < abdo> thanx. and I might as well be on holiday. the weather is exceptional. Just ask Osax. I was with him all day yesterday
[[BR]]20:08 < mako-sama> yah.. summer semester here too
[[BR]]20:08 < mako-sama> too much work -_-
[[BR]]20:08 < abdo> mako-sama: location?
[[BR]]20:09 -!- adil_hi [adil_hi@ool-4357718e.dyn.optonline.net] has quit []
[[BR]]20:09 < mako-sama> bahrain
[[BR]]20:09 -!- munzir [~munzir@213.181.177.221] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
[[BR]]20:09 < olimar> katoob doesn't compile
[[BR]]20:09 < olimar> I wonder how old 0.3.5 is...
[[BR]]20:09 <@yuyu> olimar, too late man ;)
[[BR]]20:09 < abdo> aaah. was in .bh in June
[[BR]]20:09 <@yuyu> olimar, use the CVS version
[[BR]]20:09 < olimar> yes yuyu ;)
[[BR]]20:09 <@yuyu> olimar, katoob released version are outdated
[[BR]]20:09 <@yuyu> s/version/versions
[[BR]]20:10 < mako-sama> ya... maybe uniball should make a small release
[[BR]]20:10 <@yuyu> mako-sama, yeah, he said earlier that he 'll do a realeases in about about a month maybe
[[BR]]20:11 < abdo> where's kuru?
[[BR]]20:11 <@yuyu> abdo, he's tired ;)
[[BR]]20:11 < abdo> he's always tired
[[BR]]20:11 <@yuyu> tell me about it ;)
[[BR]]20:12 < abdo> there's an unfair stereotype about Sudanese people being lazy, I think it was based solely on him
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[[BR]]20:12 <@yuyu> really ? did not know about this ;)
[[BR]]20:13 < abdo> you'd have to have lived in the gulf to have heard it. we're awash with stereotypes
[[BR]]20:14 < mako-sama> i've always though sudanese are very active
[[BR]]20:15 <@yuyu> isam: are you there ?
[[BR]]20:15 < abdo> I thought so too, then I met kuru :D
[[BR]]20:15 < mako-sama> abdo: and i havn't heard anything about what you said :)
[[BR]]20:15 < abdo> hehe ok I'll stop now
[[BR]]20:16 < mako-sama> anyway.. prayer time :)
[[BR]]20:16 <@yuyu> is Carlos Perello Marin here ?
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[[BR]]20:17 <@yuyu> olimar, do you know Carlos ?
[[BR]]20:18 < mako-sama> i don't think he's in the chan
[[BR]]20:18 < isam> yuyu, more or less
[[BR]]20:18 <@yuyu> isam, i couldnt find the evo. party's new on l4a
[[BR]]20:18 <@yuyu> s/new/news
[[BR]]20:19 -!- carlos [~carlos@69.Red-80-33-181.pooles.rima-tde.net] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]20:19 <@yuyu> cool
[[BR]]20:19 <@yuyu> carlos, Carlos Perello Marin  ?
[[BR]]20:20 < carlos> yuyu: yes
[[BR]]20:20 < carlos> Am I late?
[[BR]]20:20 <@yuyu> carlos, welcome
[[BR]]20:20 < carlos> I forgot the event is today :-(
[[BR]]20:20 <@yuyu> carlos, no, right on time ;)
[[BR]]20:20 < carlos> good
[[BR]]20:20 < gloonie> carlos, welcome
[[BR]]20:20 <@yuyu> carlos, 10 minutes earliy actually !
[[BR]]20:20 < carlos> thank you :-P
[[BR]]20:21 <@yuyu> **** 9 minutes to Carlos  Perello Marin Slot ****
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[[BR]]20:21 < isam> yuyu, did you send a news piece about the evo to l4a ?
[[BR]]20:21 -!- ashraf [~ashraf@213.185.122.17] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
[[BR]]20:21 <@yuyu> Carlos will talk about gnome i18n
[[BR]]20:21 < abdo> ah, the GNOME man is here. This should be interesting :)
[[BR]]20:22 <@yuyu> isam, i dont know. I thought that kuru told you thanks for seomething about l4a
[[BR]]20:22 -!- Jad [~Jad@82.116.136.57] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]20:22 <@yuyu> isam, so maybe i was wrong
[[BR]]20:23 < isam> yuyu, he thanked me for something that I did not do, thinking that he will make me do it .. anyone here in the channel should feel free to send a news piece about it .. and it iwll be ported
[[BR]]20:23 <@yuyu> isam, ok, so it was ironic then ;)
[[BR]]20:23 < isam> yes
[[BR]]20:23 <@yuyu> isam, no pb ;)
[[BR]]20:23 <@yuyu> isam, noted.
[[BR]]20:24 < carlos> could you explain me how will we do this?
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[[BR]]20:24 <@yuyu> carlos, I'll give you voice and you'll have the freedom to do a presentation :-)
[[BR]]20:24 <@yuyu> carlos follwoed by a Q/A answer
[[BR]]20:25 <@yuyu> carlos follwoed by a Q/A session
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[[BR]]20:25 <@yuyu> carlos: 30 minutes (presentation +Q/A)
[[BR]]20:26 <@yuyu> carlos: so, you balance them the way you like: 5 min. prese + 25 Q/A, 15 minutes both, etc
[[BR]]20:26 < carlos> yuyu: I prefer if we do it all time like Q/A session
[[BR]]20:26 <@yuyu> carlos, you can take a few minutes to present yourself and what you're doing in gnome etc
[[BR]]20:27 < carlos> ok
[[BR]]20:27 < abdo> carlos: well you have to take some time to tell people about GNOME and how the GNOME i18n is going. thats how people will know what to ask :)
[[BR]]20:27 < carlos> right :-)
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[[BR]]20:28 <@yuyu> OK - 2 minutes to go
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[[BR]]20:28 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+o nadim] by ChanServ
[[BR]]20:28 <@nadim> salam again
[[BR]]20:28 <@yuyu> nadim, wb
[[BR]]20:28 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+v carlos] by yuyu
[[BR]]20:29 <@yuyu> nadim: no .sa LUG
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[[BR]]20:29 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+m] by yuyu
[[BR]]20:29 <@yuyu> carlos, ready ?
[[BR]]20:29 <+carlos> yes
[[BR]]20:29 <@yuyu> 16:30 - 17:00    Carlos Perello Marin   (Gnome)
[[BR]]20:29 <@yuyu> carlos: go :-)
[[BR]]20:30 <+carlos> Hello
[[BR]]20:30 <+carlos> I'm working on GNOME doing several l10n/i18n tasks
[[BR]]20:30 <+carlos> like translations
[[BR]]20:30 <+carlos> and programs
[[BR]]20:31 <+carlos> my main project is the Translation Status pages 
[[BR]]20:31 <+carlos> where we get the translation status of all GNOME modules
[[BR]]20:31 <+carlos> showing graphs
[[BR]]20:31 <+carlos> and comparations between projects
[[BR]]20:32 <+carlos> It started as a complementary tool
[[BR]]20:32 <+carlos> but now our translators cannot live without them :-P
[[BR]]20:32 <+carlos> The way we work inside the GTP (The GNOME Translation Project)
[[BR]]20:33 <+carlos> is similar to other teams
[[BR]]20:33 <+carlos> we have a main mailing list with people from all languages 
[[BR]]20:33 <+carlos> (gnome-i18n@gnome.org)
[[BR]]20:33 <+carlos> and then subteams for every locale we have
[[BR]]20:34 <+carlos> we don't have a mandatory policy about how every team should work
[[BR]]20:34 <+carlos> we only ask for a team leader that will have last word about the contributions from that team
[[BR]]20:35 <+carlos> and she's who gets the cvs account to checkin translations (we work directly with CVS)
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[[BR]]20:35 <+carlos> hmmm
[[BR]]20:36 <+carlos> we have a place in the GNOME Schedule
[[BR]]20:36 <+carlos> so the release manager gives us some weeks
[[BR]]20:36 <+carlos> before any new release to update translations
[[BR]]20:37 <+carlos> with a code freeze so the strings don't change
[[BR]]20:37 <+carlos> and if the should be fixed, they notify us 
[[BR]]20:38 <+carlos> of course that's not true always and thus we have our GTP coordinator, 	Christian Rose
[[BR]]20:38 <+carlos> that asks explanations about those freeze violations :-)
[[BR]]20:39 <+carlos> that's the main ideas behind our organization
[[BR]]20:39 <+carlos> I prefer if we start with questions
[[BR]]20:39 <@yuyu> OK
[[BR]]20:39 <+carlos> so I could explain it better :-)
[[BR]]20:39 <@yuyu> thanks for the presentation carlos
[[BR]]20:39 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-m] by yuyu
[[BR]]20:39 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-v carlos] by yuyu
[[BR]]20:40 <@yuyu> ok - any questions ?
[[BR]]20:40 <@nadim> carlos: thanks for your time and presentation - how would you guage Arabic's progress compared to others' ?
[[BR]]20:40 <@nadim> we're trying to see how we are doing compared to others and how we can improve internally and externally
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[[BR]]20:41 < carlos> http://l10n-status.gnome.org/
[[BR]]20:41 <@yuyu> olimar, you're the gnome guy ;)
[[BR]]20:41 < carlos> there you have the answer :-)
[[BR]]20:41 <@yuyu> carlos, olimar is Arafat Medini, the Arabic GNOME coordinator
[[BR]]20:41 < carlos> hmm
[[BR]]20:41 <@nadim> :-) I meant from an internal point of view - are there issues in which Arabic stands out ?
[[BR]]20:41 <@kuru> from what I can see, Azerbijan is doing better
[[BR]]20:41 < carlos> you are not the best team :-(
[[BR]]20:42 < carlos> well
[[BR]]20:42 <@nadim> I'm not taking numbers per se
[[BR]]20:42 < carlos> as soon as I know there were some troubles with pango with GNOME 2.0
[[BR]]20:42 < carlos> that prevented your language to be translated fully
[[BR]]20:42 <@nadim> I was more after the process, communication, following the rules, issue resolution - that type of thing
[[BR]]20:43 <@nadim> not sure you can graph those :-)
[[BR]]20:43 < carlos> well, forgetting some personal problems Arafat and I had in the past (I had a bad day O:-)
[[BR]]20:44 <@yuyu> carlos, hehehe. ok, i see you know each other ;)
[[BR]]20:44 < abdo> sounds like there's an interesting back story here :)
[[BR]]20:44 < carlos> I saw him really active inside GNOME 
[[BR]]20:44 <@nadim> carlos: in passing we have our own internal status page on translations - could someone provide a link - my browser is dead'ish
[[BR]]20:44 < carlos> but It seems like he's alone 
[[BR]]20:44 <@nadim> abdo: hehe
[[BR]]20:44 < abdo> I have a question
[[BR]]20:44 <@yuyu> https://www.arabeyes.org/misc/gnome_status_bar.html
[[BR]]20:45 < carlos> and that could be a problem because GNOME is too big
[[BR]]20:45 <@kuru> carlos: there are some people who have tried to help out
[[BR]]20:45 <@nadim> yuyu: thanks
[[BR]]20:45 <@kuru> carlos: but yes, for the most part Arafat is responsible for most of the work
[[BR]]20:45 <@kuru> carlos: which is not a good thing.
[[BR]]20:45 < abdo> carlos: I've been translating for GNOME for about 4 months now, and we do our own quality assurance here, but what sort of quality assurance do you do on your end?
[[BR]]20:45 < abdo> kuru: I resent that! I've worked on GNOME lots too! :D
[[BR]]20:46 <@kuru> abdo: since when?
[[BR]]20:46 <@nadim> hehe
[[BR]]20:46 < abdo> kuru: since April!
[[BR]]20:46 < carlos> yuyu: nice page
[[BR]]20:46 <@kuru> abdo: Start Date:Jan 05, 2002
[[BR]]20:46 <@yuyu> carlos, the desktop files are the most important, right ?
[[BR]]20:46 <@nadim> carlos: a simple perl script :-)
[[BR]]20:46 <@kuru> abdo: so counting frmo Jan 2002 until April.. yeah, I stand by my comment.
[[BR]]20:46 < abdo> ah well..
[[BR]]20:46 < carlos> abdo: well, we cannot do any QA about the translation, just about the format of the .po files
[[BR]]20:47 <@nadim> carlos: beyond shear numbers and more progress, what can we, as Arabeyes, do to improve things
[[BR]]20:47 < carlos> it's hard to us to know about all languages
[[BR]]20:47 < carlos> yuyu: desktop and desktop-libs
[[BR]]20:47 < abdo> carlos: I know. I was asking what sort of universal language-independent QA you do
[[BR]]20:47 <@kuru> carlos: just out of curiosity, how many other language teams work in a similar fashion to Arabeyes?
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[[BR]]20:47 < olimar_> Hi again ;)
[[BR]]20:47 <@yuyu> carlos, yeah, those seem to be translated mostly
[[BR]]20:47 <@nadim> olimar_: its your time to ask :-)
[[BR]]20:47 <@yuyu> olimar_, ah finally
[[BR]]20:48 < olimar_> Carlos, gtk has very good rtl support but gnome doesn't
[[BR]]20:48 < olimar_> for eg.
[[BR]]20:48 < olimar_> libbonoboui bugs, Evo interface bugs etc... is there any plan to improve rtl support in gnome for the coming releases?
[[BR]]20:48 < carlos> nadim: well, I think you need a team of three or four persons 
[[BR]]20:48 < carlos> abdo: None at the moment (from the GTP)
[[BR]]20:49 < abdo> I C
[[BR]]20:49 < carlos> kuru: I think there are many teams with two or three translators but some of them get really good numbers because the use of translation memories
[[BR]]20:50 < carlos> kuru: but I don't know how work all teams, it's hard to me to follow all teams 
[[BR]]20:50 <@yuyu> carlos, we have that too
[[BR]]20:50 < olimar_> carlos, I think generally the other teams have at least 4 ppl working that's why many translations are doing so good
[[BR]]20:50 < carlos> olimar: that does not depends on GNOME as the project but on module maintainers
[[BR]]20:50 <@yuyu> carlos, for arabic there's an additonal issue though
[[BR]]20:50 < olimar_> Also support for some languages predates gnome 2
[[BR]]20:51 <@yuyu> carlos, it is that the computer terms are not standardized yet
[[BR]]20:51 < olimar_> especially latin langauges etc...
[[BR]]20:51 <@kuru> carlos: as far as GNOME rtl issues that are resolved in GTK+ as Arafat is saying, would a document (as per Pablo of Mandrake's suggestion earlier) that outlines Arabic GUI requirements be of use to GNOME developers?
[[BR]]20:51 < carlos> olimar: you it depends on the developers if they know how to fix it
[[BR]]20:51 <@kuru> carlos: could we work out to have such a document used (it will be coming in a month or so)
[[BR]]20:51 < carlos> if you learn us to fix the problems, I'm sure they will get fixed easier
[[BR]]20:52 < olimar_> carlos, but GNOME as a project has quality standards and I got the feeling rtl support is a low priority in the global view of the project
[[BR]]20:52 <@kuru> carlos: something along the lines of HIG .. something like AIG
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[[BR]]20:53 < carlos> olimar: yes, It's not something I like but rtl in particular and i18n in general is not a first priority with developments
[[BR]]20:53 < carlos> (personal opinion)
[[BR]]20:53 <@kuru> carlos: that is unfortunate but is partly because it's not as trivial as it should be.
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[[BR]]20:53 <@nadim> where's evolution at by the way when it comes to arabic support ?
[[BR]]20:53 < carlos> kuru: I suppose if there is any way to explain it right it could be added as an official guide for our developers
[[BR]]20:54 < olimar> yep I agree with you carlos (well it's a little bit frustrating but that's what I wanted to say ;)
[[BR]]20:54 <@nadim> kuru: I think its a good idea no matter how you look at it :-)
[[BR]]20:54 <@kuru> carlos: that's what I would like -- who is responsible for such documentation?
[[BR]]20:54 < carlos> the fact is that the best way to get those bugs fixed
[[BR]]20:54 <@kuru> nadim: what is? (a good idea)
[[BR]]20:54 <@nadim> kuru: a general arabization guide
[[BR]]20:54 < carlos> is if any developer that knows about it could help 
[[BR]]20:54 < olimar> carlos, do you think something like an AIG would be concidered and accept by the gnome community?
[[BR]]20:54 <@kuru> carlos: ie. who would I submit such a document to?
[[BR]]20:54 < Shachar> nadim, there is a company in Israel working on BiDi for evolution. Will probably only come out for 2.0, though
[[BR]]20:54 < olimar> accepted
[[BR]]20:55 < olimar> Shachar, no evo will get bidi support for 2.2
[[BR]]20:55 < carlos> olimar: I think so, but I suppose that it will take several releases until it becomes mandatory
[[BR]]20:55 <@kuru> will probably want to make it BIG (bidi to include other rtl based scripts)
[[BR]]20:55 < olimar> there is a preliminary paper on the mailing lists about this
[[BR]]20:55 <@nadim> Shachar: are tehre alpha's our beta's out there of that work ?
[[BR]]20:55 < olimar> carlos, ic
[[BR]]20:55 <@yuyu> olimar, where ?
[[BR]]20:55 < carlos> kuru: just send it to desktop-devel-list@gnome.org with CC to gnome-i18n@gnome.org
[[BR]]20:55 < olimar> carlos, how do you think can we as a group focused on rtl languages make the gnome ppl aware of our needs and problems and solutions?
[[BR]]20:55 <@nadim> can't type
[[BR]]20:56 <@kuru> carlos: cool.
[[BR]]20:56 <@kuru> Shachar: does this company have a name?
[[BR]]20:56 < carlos> we will move things so we could get it adopted, of course, if it's not a mad guide :-)
[[BR]]20:56 <@kuru> s/name/website
[[BR]]20:56 <@nadim> Shachar: are there alphas our betas out there of the bidi+evolution to try out ?
[[BR]]20:56 <@kuru> carlos: we'll try to make it sane ;)
[[BR]]20:56 < olimar> http://lists.ximian.com/archives/public/evolution-hackers/2004-July/004073.html
[[BR]]20:57 -!- mhlmi [~mhlmi@62.139.71.75] has left #arabeyes ["Leaving"]
[[BR]]20:57 < carlos> olimar: I think you should start filling bugreports at bugzilla.gnome.org
[[BR]]20:57 < carlos> with an explanation of the error
[[BR]]20:57 < olimar> carlos I did so many ;)
[[BR]]20:57 < carlos> the guide you are talking about 
[[BR]]20:57 < carlos> could be really useful
[[BR]]20:57 <@yuyu> olimar, i thought you were talking about a bidi doc, no tEvo rodmap ;)
[[BR]]20:57 <@nadim> carlos: thank you very much for coming and preseting - its really appreciated - we hope to have more contact amongst ourselves to get more and more issues resolved (do please stop by whenever you can)
[[BR]]20:57 < carlos> because you will give useful hints
[[BR]]20:58 < olimar> the problem was not filling reports or giving support there are too much problems, for eg. the evo hackers told me "as long as WE the hackers don't use Arabic we will not work on it"...
[[BR]]20:58 < olimar> only the rhythmbox ppl were really kind enough to work on the rb bugs ...
[[BR]]20:58 < olimar> generally even after filling the report mailing the maintainer privately nothing
[[BR]]20:58 < olimar> happends
[[BR]]20:58 < olimar> happens
[[BR]]20:59 < carlos> olimar: we cannot force a developer
[[BR]]20:59 < carlos> to fix bugs
[[BR]]20:59 <@kuru> olimar: no one is obliged to do anything about a bug report though -- it is then our responsibility to submit patches.
[[BR]]20:59 < carlos> if they are not critical
[[BR]]20:59 <@kuru> olimar: so it's also our fault.
[[BR]]20:59 < carlos> so, I think you should concentrate into the RTL guide
[[BR]]20:59 < carlos> so I could became a mandatory guide
[[BR]]20:59 < olimar> that's true BUT I think the problem is different and we spoke about it, as long as rtl has low priority no one will want to work on it
[[BR]]20:59 <@yuyu> carlos, noted
[[BR]]20:59 <@nadim> olimar: I think that's endemic to most applications and not just Gnome - although a "please support XX languyage" from above (Gnome proper) would help :-)  So you just need to be persistent and patient (and see if we can ourselves fix problems :-)
[[BR]]20:59 < carlos> other option is send patches to fix the problem 
[[BR]]21:00 < olimar> STILL
[[BR]]21:00 < olimar> and this is for all of you
[[BR]]21:00 < carlos> and I suppose that the maintainer will update them 
[[BR]]21:00 < olimar> the gtk ppl did an incredible job
[[BR]]21:00 < olimar> in supporting Arabic
[[BR]]21:00 < olimar> so this shows the possibility of doing good work for rtl languages is there
[[BR]]21:00 < carlos> olimar: the problem is that you need to know what are you doing
[[BR]]21:00 <@kuru> ** DING DING DING **
[[BR]]21:00 <@nadim> hehe
[[BR]]21:00 <@kuru> *** 17:00 - 17:30    Youcef Rabah Rahal     (Arabeyes - Bayani) ***
[[BR]]21:01 <@yuyu> ah
[[BR]]21:01 < olimar> true
[[BR]]21:01 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+m] by kuru
[[BR]]21:01 <@yuyu> ppl that will be a long presentation
[[BR]]21:01 <@yuyu> OK, I'll do a presentation in 5 points:
[[BR]]21:01 <@yuyu> 1- Introduction
[[BR]]21:01 <@yuyu> 2- History
[[BR]]21:01 <@yuyu> 3- Current implemented features
[[BR]]21:01 <@yuyu> 4- TODOs
[[BR]]21:01 <@yuyu> 5- Conclusion
[[BR]]21:02 <@yuyu> Let's start !
[[BR]]21:02 <@yuyu> 1- Introduction
[[BR]]21:02 <@yuyu> * Bayani is/will be a mathematical and scientific toolkit to:
[[BR]]21:02 <@yuyu> a- Draw graphs (functions, 2D data graphs, histograms)
[[BR]]21:02 <@yuyu> b- Perform symbolic computation
[[BR]]21:02 <@yuyu>  c- Fit data
[[BR]]21:03 <@yuyu> d- Open usual scientific data formats (FITS images...)
[[BR]]21:03 <@yuyu> e- etc etc etc
[[BR]]21:03 <@yuyu> * The license is GPL
[[BR]]21:03 <@yuyu> * The public is primrily university students. But I aim high-school students and researchers too :)
[[BR]]21:03 -!- Jad [~Jad@82.116.136.57] has quit [Client Quit]
[[BR]]21:04 <@yuyu> * There are solutions ou there, but usually they are aimed at specialists. Also, you can find applications that plot graphs, others that do symbolic computation, bu I'm not aware of any FREE and COMPLETE solutions.
[[BR]]21:04 <@yuyu> Now, about the history
[[BR]]21:04 <@yuyu> 2- History
[[BR]]21:04 -!- adil_hi [adil_hi@ool-4357718e.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]21:04 <@yuyu> * April/May 2002: I wanted to learn to develop with XLib and I 'naturally' wanted to develop an application that represents functions/data.
[[BR]]21:05 <@yuyu> * June/July 2002: It happens that around the same time, I discovered Arabeyes and I wanted to contribute somehow. Initially, I wanted to do some translation, but due to technical reasons (!) I started to translate long after that (winter or spring 2003 IIRC).
[[BR]]21:05 <@yuyu> * November 2002: After a few months, I finally found an idea how to contribute... By introducting Arabic in the small XLib application I was developping. I decided however to port it to QT3. This happened to be a very good choice ;-) [Good Unicode support and 'much more'].
[[BR]]21:06 <@yuyu> I also decided to add other useful features to the function/data drawing thing, to make it a complete and coherent application. This idea was to write a mathematical and scientific toolkit.
[[BR]]21:06 -!- Jad [~Jad@82.116.136.57] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]21:06 <@yuyu> * November 2002 to February 2003: Active development phase. I released the first version, Bayani0.1a, on January 2003.
[[BR]]21:07 <@yuyu> * Then I got busy and development stopped for more than 10 months...
[[BR]]21:07 <@yuyu> * January 2004 to May 2004: Active development again. I wanted to to do a release for this party but I got busy again since then... ;) The current CVS version is far better than the initial 0.1a version, but it's not releasable (or even usable) yet.
[[BR]]21:07 <@yuyu> * August 2004 (?): I hope I'll be able to work again on the beast!
[[BR]]21:08 <@yuyu> Now, the implemented features
[[BR]]21:08 <@yuyu> 3- Current implemented features
[[BR]]21:08 <@yuyu> * Before talking about the features, I'd like to address an important point.
[[BR]]21:08 <@yuyu> One may ask: why such an application has to be developed with an Arabic flavour in it ???
[[BR]]21:08 <@yuyu> Does such a program, if it has to be localized, need more than the traditional translation of the PO files ??
[[BR]]21:09 <@yuyu> The answer is yes indeed, we need to take some subtilities into account !
[[BR]]21:09 -!- Uniball-ssh [~mohammed@81.10.17.94] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]21:09 <@yuyu> For example, if you want to implement symbolic computation, function derivation for example, and want to derive f(x)=sin(x), you have to consider that in Arabic, the functions have other names. The variables too. And the whole is written in Arabic characters and from right to left ;)
[[BR]]21:10 <@yuyu> If you take this subtilities into account (in the back-end), the localization becomes indeed just a translation of PO files (seriously :) and the application could be localized to any language out there (or at least I hope so). This is of course already implemented in Bayani ;-)
[[BR]]21:10 <@yuyu> So now here's the _non-exhasutive_ list of implemented features:
[[BR]]21:10 <@yuyu> - Multi Document Interface (MDI).
[[BR]]21:10 <@yuyu> - Plotting of Histograms, 2D graphs, mathematical functions.
[[BR]]21:11 <@yuyu> - Possibility to do 'cuts' or 'expressions' when plotting data.
[[BR]]21:11 <@yuyu> - Linear or Logarithmic coordinates.
[[BR]]21:11 <@yuyu> - On page can hold a multitude of graphs, and the graphs are superposable.
[[BR]]21:12 -!- Uniball-ssh [~mohammed@81.10.17.94] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
[[BR]]21:12 <@yuyu> - The graphical settings are highly configurable (colours, shapes, lines...)
[[BR]]21:12 <@yuyu> - Data drawing with errors.
[[BR]]21:12 <@yuyu> - Linear data fitting.
[[BR]]21:12 <@yuyu> - Symbolic Computation (derivation only).
[[BR]]21:12 <@yuyu> - FITS images handling (an Astonomical data/image format).
[[BR]]21:12 <@yuyu> - A small command script language (for automation).
[[BR]]21:13 <@yuyu> - Bayani is localized to Arabic, French and English (GUI translated, symbolic computation works in three languages, the script language too !).
[[BR]]21:13 <@yuyu> 4- TODOs
[[BR]]21:13 <@yuyu> Of course, the project is very ambituous ! Unfortunately, due to the lack of free time, many interesting features are not implemented yet (sometimes basic ones !). Here's the non exhasutive list.
[[BR]]21:13 <@yuyu> - Implement performant fitting algorithms (and take errors into account).
[[BR]]21:14 <@yuyu> - Continue with Symbolic Computation. Integration for example. And much more !
[[BR]]21:14 <@yuyu> - Data persistence.
[[BR]]21:14 <@yuyu> - Implement 3D representation.
[[BR]]21:14 <@yuyu> - Exceptions handling (in the back-end...).
[[BR]]21:14 <@yuyu> - Equation systems resolutions
[[BR]]21:14 <@yuyu> - Graphical equation resolutions
[[BR]]21:14 <@yuyu> - Polar coordinates.
[[BR]]21:14 <@yuyu> - Compatibility vis a vis scientific formats.
[[BR]]21:15 <@yuyu> - etc etc etc
[[BR]]21:15 <@yuyu> 5- Conclusion
[[BR]]21:15 <@yuyu> In short:
[[BR]]21:15 <@yuyu> Bayani is an _ambitious_ project. With more free time one can do wonders ;-)
[[BR]]21:15 <@yuyu> For more information:
[[BR]]21:15 <@yuyu> The project's page: https://www.arabeyes.org/Bayani
[[BR]]21:15 <@yuyu> (Aboveall take a look at the screenshots: http://art.arabeyes.org/bayani)
[[BR]]21:15 <@yuyu> Voila
[[BR]]21:16 <@yuyu>  --- End ---
[[BR]]21:16 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-m] by kuru
[[BR]]21:16 <@nadim> yuyu: thanks you for a very complete and thorough intro/presentation - one simple question, why did you initially start looking into all of this ?  Did you have a need that went unfilled (or just showing off the fruits of that astonomy PhD you're holding :-) ?
[[BR]]21:16 <@yuyu> the door is ringing
[[BR]]21:16 < olimar> as no one is really interested in Arabic apps why do you think bayani is an addition ot any Arabic user? What are the benefits for the user?
[[BR]]21:16 < olimar> to
[[BR]]21:16 <@yuyu> hehe
[[BR]]21:17 <@yuyu> nadim, yeah, that'sq because of the PhD of course
[[BR]]21:17 <@kuru> olimar: I think schools and universities come to mind.
[[BR]]21:17 <@yuyu> olimar, high school students and university studenst of course
[[BR]]21:17 <@nadim> yuyu: so was it part of your PhD proper work per se ?
[[BR]]21:17 <@yuyu> nadim, no
[[BR]]21:17 <@nadim> ah, ok
[[BR]]21:17 <@yuyu> nadim, it was a hobbiyist work
[[BR]]21:17 <@nadim> noted.
[[BR]]21:17 <@yuyu> and still it is
[[BR]]21:18 < mako-sama> :)
[[BR]]21:18 <@kuru> Dr. Yuyu, are we going to see a release of Bayani in 2004? ;)
[[BR]]21:18 <@yuyu> olimar, as a high school student i'd interested to draw my function in arabic
[[BR]]21:18 < olimar> but these ppl are the ones who say we are too educated to use Arabic software... How convince them to use such a specefic app?
[[BR]]21:18 <@kuru> olimar: I know that when I was in high school, I would have 100% used bayani had it existed.
[[BR]]21:18 <@nadim> yuyu: are people able to use bayani in "simple" mode to plot graphs, etc (the other apps' name doesn't come to mind that do this) - ie. is is "older formats" friendly ?
[[BR]]21:19 < olimar> well yep an app like yours is very good especially for undergrduates I think indeed
[[BR]]21:19 -!- adil_hi [adil_hi@ool-4357718e.dyn.optonline.net] has quit []
[[BR]]21:19 <@yuyu> kurui hope so.
[[BR]]21:19 <@kuru> olimar: fortunately I don't have to study this kind of stuff anymore ;)
[[BR]]21:19 < abdo> yuyu: question
[[BR]]21:19 <@yuyu> kuru; if i have enough time to, i dont know
[[BR]]21:19 < olimar> ;)
[[BR]]21:19 <@yuyu> nadim, what do you mean by simple mode ?
[[BR]]21:19 <@yuyu> abdo, yes ?
[[BR]]21:20 < abdo> I know having an 'Arabic flavour' is a plus for the Arabic user in this app, but is it necessary? Would it make a difference if we developed it in English then translated PO files?
[[BR]]21:20 < olimar> well still I am wondering, as said, as long as Arabic software seems to be so damn uncool I doubt someone gets interested in Arabic software
[[BR]]21:20 <@kuru> abdo: I think he explained that in his presentation -- read up
[[BR]]21:20 <@yuyu> abdo, no, it's developed as an english app
[[BR]]21:20 <@nadim> yuyu: if I have a table (text file) full of plot points, can that be used to plot things in bayani (as noted I don't rememeber the names of the various apps that do that)
[[BR]]21:20 < olimar> I think Bayani is definetely great
[[BR]]21:20 < olimar> but ...
[[BR]]21:20 < abdo> I mean: we can just say that f(x)=sin(x) is �$-1­ï(­ó)=­ì­ç(­ó)
[[BR]]21:20 < abdo> aaaaah
[[BR]]21:20 < abdo> sorry
[[BR]]21:21 <@yuyu> abdo: ie, when you ake care about the subtilities i was talking about, all you have to dpo to localize bayani is to translate the Pos
[[BR]]21:21 <@yuyu> nadim, of course
[[BR]]21:21 <@kuru> olimar: not really -- I did math in high school in Arabic -- so my option would definitely be Bayani like app.
[[BR]]21:21 <@yuyu> nadim, it's already implmeneted
[[BR]]21:21 <@nadim> yuyu: thought so
[[BR]]21:21 <@yuyu> nadim, as a histo, or as a 2D graph
[[BR]]21:22 <@nadim> yuyu: so bayani should note that in bold letters as it is in active developement and already surpasses what other apps (in similar category) do
[[BR]]21:22 < olimar> kuru, interesting
[[BR]]21:22 <@yuyu> olimar, the aim, is to do math in arabic, or in english or in french, or hebrew or chinese
[[BR]]21:22 < olimar> ic
[[BR]]21:22 <@yuyu> olimar, so you do the symbolic computation in any language you like ;)
[[BR]]21:23 <@yuyu> and draw the functions accrofingly, and have the corresponding interface
[[BR]]21:23 <@nadim> olimar: arabic's coolness or lack is nothing we can control - we are all do this because _we_ think its "cool", necessary and needed - hope that helps :-)
[[BR]]21:23 < olimar> which toolkit does bayani use?
[[BR]]21:23 <@yuyu> of course, it is very funny to develop such an app, btw ;)
[[BR]]21:23 <@yuyu> olimar, QT
[[BR]]21:23 <@kuru> has anyone been reading what yuyu was saying in his presentation?
[[BR]]21:23 <@nadim> yuyu: what has been the more difficult thing to deal with ?
[[BR]]21:23 <@kuru> he said all these things ;)
[[BR]]21:24 < olimar> nadim, I think this is a problem for itself but I think Arabs are doomed ppl
[[BR]]21:24 <@yuyu> i learned a lot of stuuff, last of which the big/little endian thing
[[BR]]21:24 < olimar> kuru I was reading it ;)
[[BR]]21:24 <@kuru> yuyu: isn't that fun ;)
[[BR]]21:24 <@yuyu> nadim, the symbolic computation.
[[BR]]21:24 < olimar> but you can't read 100% after being 5 hours on the irc ;)
[[BR]]21:24 <@nadim> olimar: that's one opinion - no reason to stand in the rain and cry :-)
[[BR]]21:24 <@yuyu> nadim, but it's a funny thing (challening)
[[BR]]21:25 <@nadim> yuyu: if you could change 1 thing about the whole experiance - what would it have been ?
[[BR]]21:25 <@yuyu> nadim, howver, the easiest things are the most boring; ie the GUI building
[[BR]]21:25 <@kuru> yuyu: is there any UI guideline you are using or something you are mimicking.. or are you just improvising as you go?
[[BR]]21:25 <@yuyu> nadim, heheh, nothing. excpet having more time to do it
[[BR]]21:25 -!- mudy [mudy@62.135.2.81] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]21:26 <@yuyu> kuru: improvising, really ;)
[[BR]]21:26 -!- SlowLight [~justforad@81-23-201-121.cust.web-sat.com] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]21:26 <@yuyu> hehe
[[BR]]21:26 <@yuyu> kuruseriously, KDE
[[BR]]21:26 <@nadim> yuyu: keep in mind that when we first learned about bayani at arabeyes, lots of people were very sceptical :-)  I'm very glad you brought it forth and realized it and we hope to see alot more from "this little engine that could" :-)
[[BR]]21:26 <@yuyu> thanks ;)
[[BR]]21:26 <@yuyu> btw,
[[BR]]21:26 <@yuyu> if anyone wants to help
[[BR]]21:26 -!- menil [meni@212.199.12.50.forward.012.net.il] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]21:26 <@yuyu> my nightmare is he autotools stuff
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[[BR]]21:27 < Shachar> yuyu, do you need automake, or just autoconf?
[[BR]]21:27 <@yuyu> i rememebr kuru said once he'd like to help with it ;)
[[BR]]21:27 <@yuyu> Shachar, none
[[BR]]21:27 < Shachar> then no nightmare
[[BR]]21:27 <@yuyu> Shachar, a makefile writen by hand
[[BR]]21:27 < Shachar> problem solved :-)
[[BR]]21:27 < abdo> yuyu: I think if we can get a release of bayani soon, it wont be difficult for us to push for its usage in univs and schools
[[BR]]21:27 < Shachar> what do you need, though
[[BR]]21:27 <@yuyu> Shachar, i'd like to have autotools
[[BR]]21:27 < Shachar> have a look at "netchat" in sourceforge
[[BR]]21:27 <@nadim> yuyu: you really need to more to 'autoconf'
[[BR]]21:27 -!- olimar_ [~olimar@p213.54.69.217.tisdip.tiscali.de] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]21:28 < olimar_> yuyu, any plan to port bayani to gtk?
[[BR]]21:28 <@yuyu> nadim, whatever it's called ;)
[[BR]]21:28 < Shachar> it's a small program (written by yours truely) that has a relatively basic autoconf and automake setup
[[BR]]21:28 -!- ADminS [~ADminS@81.10.40.108] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]21:28 <@kuru> ** 2 MINUTES for Shachar's SLOT **
[[BR]]21:28 < Shachar> it should be a pretty good starting point
[[BR]]21:28 <@yuyu> olimar, not on the ner future
[[BR]]21:28 <@yuyu> s/ner/near
[[BR]]21:28 <@yuyu> olimar: too much work
[[BR]]21:28 < olimar_> ic
[[BR]]21:28 <@yuyu> Shachar, noted, thanks :)
[[BR]]21:28 <@nadim> Shachar: odd name :-)
[[BR]]21:29 <@nadim> Shachar: netchat for autoconf things - hehe
[[BR]]21:29 <@yuyu> olimar: lots of work has been spent on the UI
[[BR]]21:29 < Shachar> it's a combination of netcat and chat
[[BR]]21:29 <@nadim> ah
[[BR]]21:29 < Shachar> put on steroids
[[BR]]21:29 <@yuyu> olimar: in fact 90% of the time :-)
[[BR]]21:29 < Shachar> a good tool for stress testing networks
[[BR]]21:29 <@yuyu> olimar: it's the most boring stuff
[[BR]]21:29 <@kuru> yuyu: thank you Dr. Yuyu for your presentation and q&a
[[BR]]21:29 <@yuyu> olimar: all the rest is very funny
[[BR]]21:29 <@yuyu> kuru: you're welcome
[[BR]]21:29 <@kuru> yuyu: although you cheated and cut/paste the presentation part ;)
[[BR]]21:29 <@yuyu> of course
[[BR]]21:30 <@kuru> Shachar: prepare to take your seat, you are up next.
[[BR]]21:30 < Shachar> ready
[[BR]]21:30 <@kuru> ** DING DING DING **
[[BR]]21:30 < olimar_> I think having such an app use XUL would be a spiffy idea
[[BR]]21:30 < mako-sama> yes.. wine ;/
[[BR]]21:30 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+m] by kuru
[[BR]]21:30 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+v Shachar] by kuru
[[BR]]21:30 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+v Shachar] by yuyu
[[BR]]21:30 <@yuyu> heh
[[BR]]21:30 <@kuru> *** 17:30 - 18:00    Shachar Shemesh        (Wine) ***
[[BR]]21:30 <@kuru> yuyu: lag
[[BR]]21:30 <+Shachar> two voices. Yeah!
[[BR]]21:31 <+Shachar> Ok, I'll keep the introduction part short
[[BR]]21:31 <+Shachar> because the interactive part is the one I find interesting
[[BR]]21:31 <+Shachar> My name is Shachar Shemesh, and I'm a Wine hacker
[[BR]]21:32 <+Shachar> wine stands for "Wine Is Not an Emulator"
[[BR]]21:32 <+Shachar> (and not "Windows Emulator", as some would have it :-)
[[BR]]21:32 -!- BooDy [~BooDy@217.139.69.133] has quit [Client Quit]
[[BR]]21:32 <+Shachar> It is a valliant attempt at reimplementing the entire Win32, Win16, and sometimes in the future, Win64 API
[[BR]]21:32 <+Shachar> The project is written in C (even the COM stuff)
[[BR]]21:33 <+Shachar> and is 100% from-scratch implementation.
[[BR]]21:33 <+Shachar> Most of the development is done by people employed by a company called "CodeWeavers", who built a proprietary product around Wine, called "CrossOver office".
[[BR]]21:34 <+Shachar> This product is mostly aimed at running the common productivity tools - Office, IE, photoshop, etc.
[[BR]]21:34 <+Shachar> There is also another commercial fork, used to be called "WineX", by a company called "Transgaming"
[[BR]]21:34 <+Shachar> aimed at running games.
[[BR]]21:34 <+Shachar> Wine is LGPL. Crossover is proprietary shell around LGPL Wine
[[BR]]21:35 <+Shachar> Transgaming is based on an old version of Wine which was X11.
[[BR]]21:35 <+Shachar> Confused yet?
[[BR]]21:35 <+Shachar> Most of my work on Wine has been around the BiDi area
[[BR]]21:35 -!- matata [~mhd@66.198.39.25] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]21:36 <+Shachar> Windows BiDi support is weaved into the API, so it's really a process of slowly finding where things need to be done differently, and implementing what is needed
[[BR]]21:36 <+Shachar> the code is mostly based on ICU, which I don't like
[[BR]]21:36 <+Shachar> but fribidi doesn't support UTF-16, which is what Windows use
[[BR]]21:36 <+Shachar> so practical reasons dictate ICU
[[BR]]21:36 <+Shachar> that's it. let the questions roll
[[BR]]21:36 -!- NewComer [~newcomer@62.135.96.62] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]21:37  * Shachar ducks
[[BR]]21:37 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-m] by kuru
[[BR]]21:37 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-v Shachar] by kuru
[[BR]]21:37 <@kuru> Shachar: so where would you give the current rtl support in wine today? (on a 1-10 scale)
[[BR]]21:38 -!- matata [~mhd@66.198.39.25] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
[[BR]]21:38 < mako-sama> o_o
[[BR]]21:38 < Shachar> The status page on WineHQ rates it at around 80%. This is mostly due to the 80-20 rule.
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[[BR]]21:38 < Shachar> 20% of the code does 80% of the job
[[BR]]21:38 < Shachar> there's still lots and lots and lots of things to do
[[BR]]21:38 < Shachar> Shaping is not 100% there yet (though ICU supports it)
[[BR]]21:39 < Shachar> UI elements are not properly ordered
[[BR]]21:39 <@yuyu> Shachar, is thezre rommm to help ? if so, how can we help ?
[[BR]]21:39 < Shachar> and there is no edit control
[[BR]]21:39 < Shachar> yuyu, there is LOTS of room
[[BR]]21:39 <@kuru> Shachar: Frankly, at least for me, Wine is a low priority, but aside from hackers, what else can RTL users do to help?
[[BR]]21:39 < Shachar> hacking wine is a strange experience
[[BR]]21:39 < Shachar> first of all - most of the code is written in Win32
[[BR]]21:40 <@yuyu> ooch
[[BR]]21:40 < Shachar> major parts of wine can be compiled on Windows :-)
[[BR]]21:40 < Shachar> second, you are positioned at the opposite end of the game from where you usually sit
[[BR]]21:40 < Shachar> instead of implementing functionality based on an existing API, you are tweaking a mostly existing API to get functionality right
[[BR]]21:41 < Shachar> often, with no source to either the original API nor to the application that uses it
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[[BR]]21:41 < Shachar> luckily, the work on BiDi is too immature for this to be the problem. Finding bugs in the Wine BiDi is very very easy
[[BR]]21:41 < olimar_> as you are a company can you make money from your products? How do you see the market for OSS software?
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[[BR]]21:41 <@nadim> Shachar: thanks for the presentation - I'm very new to this concept :-)  So are you sauing that I can take my windows Word executable and simply run it within wine in linux ?
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[[BR]]21:42 < Shachar> olimar, as a company, I don't make products per se. I am selling services
[[BR]]21:42 < olimar> ic
[[BR]]21:42 < abdo> Question...
[[BR]]21:42 < Shachar> so far, there has been enough demand to keep us alive
[[BR]]21:42 < olimar> so for eg. in your case what services do you sell?
[[BR]]21:42 < Shachar> let's hope this continues :-)
[[BR]]21:42 < olimar> cool!
[[BR]]21:42 < olimar> really nice!
[[BR]]21:42 < Shachar> nadim, you can, but you will need some tweaking
[[BR]]21:43 < Shachar> look at the Wine site (http://www.winehq.org) for a reference to "franks corner"
[[BR]]21:43 < Shachar> it's a great site with explanations on what needs to be done to get certain applications running
[[BR]]21:43 < abdo> What would you say are the most prominent problems and the ones most difficult to solve related to bidi when using wine?
[[BR]]21:43 <@nadim> Shachar: my fault I know - sorry about the newbie question
[[BR]]21:43 <@yuyu> Shachar, how is the learning curve ?
[[BR]]21:43 < Shachar> abdo, defenitely the edit control
[[BR]]21:43 < abdo> I mean what are things that work/dont work?
[[BR]]21:43 < Shachar> I have been very busy lately with forming Lingnu (my company)
[[BR]]21:44 < Shachar> so things have been a little quiet on the Wine front
[[BR]]21:44 <@yuyu> Shachar, how long will it take to a newbie to finally know the subtilities of wine and starts to participate ?
[[BR]]21:44 < Shachar> right now, the edit control will display things the right order, but cursor movement and selection will be all wrong
[[BR]]21:44 <@nadim> Shachar: ie. how does one get started in helping ?
[[BR]]21:44 < Shachar> that's the most hurting problem
[[BR]]21:44 < Shachar> as for helping - that depends on what you want to do.
[[BR]]21:45 <@nadim> Shachar: sounds like current Bidi support in PuTTY :-)
[[BR]]21:45 < Shachar> it's too early, bidi wise, to search for bugs
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[[BR]]21:45 < Shachar> there are too many of them, and they are too obvious
[[BR]]21:45 <@nadim> all the control characters are not being handled correctly
[[BR]]21:45 < Shachar> if you have Win32 coding skills, it'll be pretty easy to get into the game
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[[BR]]21:45 < Shachar> just pick an area that is of interest to you, and watch for something that looks interesting
[[BR]]21:46 < Shachar> you will get the first few patches wrong, but that's ok. We all did :-)
[[BR]]21:46 <@nadim> Shachar: is there a process/path to follow to get the appropriate knowledge to hack/code on wine (beyond the winhq site - any other docs, primers, etc ?)
[[BR]]21:46 < Shachar> not really. Also, it's a matter of a month at most to start being productive
[[BR]]21:46 < Shachar> wine is more frightening than difficult
[[BR]]21:46 <@yuyu> ok - one month :-)
[[BR]]21:46 <@nadim> Shachar: I take it Cygwin would be sufficient to code/compile on windows ?
[[BR]]21:47 < Shachar> actually, wine is too low-level to use cygwin. The windows version of the DLLs are certainly compiled with mingw
[[BR]]21:47 < Shachar> but only those DLLs that only depend on Win32 APIs
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[[BR]]21:47 < Shachar> i.e. - not kernel32.dll or ntdll
[[BR]]21:48 < Shachar> the wine dlls for windows is mostly as a debugging aid, not for real
[[BR]]21:48 < Shachar> though the reactos guys are doing something not altogether different
[[BR]]21:48 <@nadim> Shachar: so to write and develop for wine on a windows machine what sort of setup is needed ? 
[[BR]]21:48 < Shachar> you don't
[[BR]]21:48 < Shachar> you write and develop for wine on a linux machine
[[BR]]21:48 < Shachar> but you still code in Win32
[[BR]]21:49 < Shachar> :-)
[[BR]]21:49 <@yuyu> ah
[[BR]]21:49 <@nadim> ah
[[BR]]21:49 <@nadim> <lightbulb>
[[BR]]21:49 <@nadim> hehe
[[BR]]21:49 < olimar> Shachar, for eg. I have a word doc with tables and formatting all written in Arabic and I want to print it under Linux what does happen?
[[BR]]21:49 < Shachar> ok, Word does all of it's own bidi
[[BR]]21:49 < Shachar> so things actually work better than expected
[[BR]]21:49 < Shachar> there is one problem that hurts that has to do with keyboard language detection
[[BR]]21:50 < Shachar> since Word does its own bidi, it keeps asking "what keyboard is currently selcted"?
[[BR]]21:50 < Shachar> Wine does not have, at the moment, the capacity to answer that question
[[BR]]21:50 < Shachar> so it gives a static answer based on the locale when Wine was run
[[BR]]21:50 < Shachar> for all practical reasons, this means you can use word to write Arabic, or English, but not both at the same time.
[[BR]]21:51 < Shachar> You can write an Arabic document, and then reload it and add English words to it - that will work
[[BR]]21:51 <@yuyu> Shachar, you mean you cant change the kb dynamically ?
[[BR]]21:51 <@yuyu> ok
[[BR]]21:51 <@nadim> Shachar: so compared to vmware - wine is an abstraction above (if you will), right ?  Meaning wine doesn't get involved in system calls and simply reverts to calling linux functions, right ?  Again, sorry for the newbie Q
[[BR]]21:51 < Shachar> you can change the keyboard
[[BR]]21:51 < olimar> and what does this mean for printing the doc?
[[BR]]21:52 < Shachar> but the Word bidi algorithm depends on the keyboard language at the time the text was entered to resolve neutrals
[[BR]]21:52 <@nadim> Shachar: how do you guys go about finding all these requirements - trial and error ?
[[BR]]21:52 < Shachar> so the text would appear in English, but backwards
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[[BR]]21:52 < Shachar> nadim, trial and error, as well as debug outputs from the Win32 api (we control that, after all)
[[BR]]21:52 < Shachar> nadim, regarding vmware:
[[BR]]21:53 < Shachar> VMWare - emulate the hardware. The operating system is installed on top of that. VMWare almost doesn't care whether it's Windows, Linux or Solaris
[[BR]]21:53 < Shachar> Win4Lin - you install the operating system, and then Win4Lin replaces key parts of the DLLs to make them work "natively"
[[BR]]21:53 < Shachar> Wine - no Microsoft code is involved at all
[[BR]]21:54 < Shachar> So, VMWare already supports any language you can imagine
[[BR]]21:54 < Shachar> Win4Lin doesn't, and is not likely to, support Arabic
[[BR]]21:54 < mako-sama> you can't install arabic windows on win4lin.. that's where wine comes ;\
[[BR]]21:54 < Shachar> and Wine will support it, if we do the coding :-)
[[BR]]21:55 <@nadim> Shachar: insane question :-)  Are bootlegged version of the source of any/all windows applications ever looked at (or sought) to simply acertain what functionality and calls are required ?
[[BR]]21:55 < Shachar> we take active measures to avoid them
[[BR]]21:55 < Shachar> as soon as you look at that, you are hard pressed to prove you did not copy code over
[[BR]]21:55 <@nadim> wow - it must be very difficult to do what you guys are doing
[[BR]]21:55 < Shachar> which would mean Wine is a derived work of Windows. Not good
[[BR]]21:55 <@nadim> to reverse engineer all these calls must be murderous
[[BR]]21:56 < Shachar> we sometimes rev-eng, when there is really no choice
[[BR]]21:56 < Shachar> but no sources. That's a definite no-no
[[BR]]21:56 < Shachar> also, no copying over of headers
[[BR]]21:56 <@nadim> which I'd guess would be like 60% of the time early on :-)
[[BR]]21:56 < Shachar> no, msdn covers quite a lot
[[BR]]21:57 < Shachar> and you can get to it online at msdn.microsoft.com
[[BR]]21:57 <@nadim> ah...
[[BR]]21:57 < Shachar> they even took active measures to make sure non-IE browsers work there
[[BR]]21:57 <@nadim> hehe
[[BR]]21:57 < Shachar> that's an important aspect of our work
[[BR]]21:57 <@nadim> Shachar: very interesting
[[BR]]21:57 < Shachar> as well as looking at applications that don't work, analyzing parameters, and trying to figure out why the #$(&!#( they don't work
[[BR]]21:57 < Shachar> it can get amusing at times
[[BR]]21:58 < Shachar> that's how I figured out that Word doesn't work because of the keyboard detection code
[[BR]]21:58 < Shachar> lots of this is covered in an interview with me on winehq
[[BR]]21:58 < Shachar> I don't have the URL handy
[[BR]]21:58 <@nadim> Shachar: so what can we expect for the next year ?
[[BR]]21:59 <@nadim> Shachar: and what areas do you envision (in your immediate work category) needing help with ?
[[BR]]21:59 < Shachar> there is a good chance Lingnu will divert resources to solving some of the more pressing problems
[[BR]]21:59 < Shachar> this will defenitely include the edit control, and probably the keyboard detection
[[BR]]21:59 < mako-sama> i dont' know what is lingnu
[[BR]]21:59 < Shachar> I'm not sure about shaping, but I'm hoping you guys can help with that
[[BR]]22:00 < Shachar> lingnu is my company
[[BR]]22:00 <@nadim> Shachar: is there a public list of "pressing" problems/issues ?
[[BR]]22:00 <@nadim> Shachar: we can/should indeed
[[BR]]22:00 <@kuru> ** Free Form time **
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[[BR]]22:00 < Shachar> it's coming to the point where wine is helping me make sells, and that requires better bidi support
[[BR]]22:00 < Shachar> that, in turn, requires time
[[BR]]22:00 < olimar> and ppl
[[BR]]22:00 < Shachar> thanks for inviting me, guys
[[BR]]22:00 <@nadim> Shachar: thank you again for presenting and coming - it was very informative.  Thanks again for your time
[[BR]]22:00 < mako-sama> thank you for coming :)
[[BR]]22:01 < Shachar> my interview is at http://winehq.org/?interview=16
[[BR]]22:01 <@kuru> Shachar: thank _you_ for coming -- it has been rather educational
[[BR]]22:01 <@yuyu> Shachar, you're more than welcome
[[BR]]22:01 <@kuru> Shachar: most of us have read it ;)
[[BR]]22:01  * Shachar blushes
[[BR]]22:01 <@nadim> Shachar: do please keep in touch
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[[BR]]22:01 < Shachar> I'll try to drop by occasionally
[[BR]]22:01 < Shachar> I'm often on #winehackers
[[BR]]22:01 <@nadim> Shachar: I know a number of people would jump at the opportunity to add shaping given a bit of guidence
[[BR]]22:02 < Shachar> I'll probably manage to do that to text output myself
[[BR]]22:02 < Shachar> ICU supports it. It's just a matter of making sure it works
[[BR]]22:02 < olimar> dudes I'll be back later
[[BR]]22:02 -!- olimar [~olimar@p213.54.69.217.tisdip.tiscali.de] has quit ["Leaving"]
[[BR]]22:02 < Shachar> adding proper support inside the edit control, however, will require a more native understanding of the language
[[BR]]22:03 <@nadim> Shachar: by edit control you mean all those pesky control characters, right ?
[[BR]]22:03 < Shachar> I havn't used my arabic for over 12 years. Not much left of it
[[BR]]22:03 < amaoui> hi everyone!
[[BR]]22:03 <@nadim> amaoui: salam
[[BR]]22:03 < Shachar> no, by edit control I mean areas where you can edit text
[[BR]]22:03 < Shachar> notepad is one big edit control
[[BR]]22:03 <@nadim> Shachar: yeah, that's what i meant
[[BR]]22:03 < Shachar> then that's what I meant :-)
[[BR]]22:03 <@nadim> Shachar: so for things like moving a cursor and skipping words, etc
[[BR]]22:04 < Shachar> right
[[BR]]22:04 < Shachar> also - the problem is far from understood
[[BR]]22:04 <@nadim> Shachar: that stuff is NOT documented is it ?
[[BR]]22:04 <@nadim> ie. there is no standard on how those things are to be done
[[BR]]22:04 < Shachar> which part? The APIs are documented
[[BR]]22:04 < Shachar> there is a standard, written by Mati from IBM ISrael
[[BR]]22:04 < Shachar> it's not a good standard, though
[[BR]]22:04 < Shachar> it's ok for text editing (which is what edit control is)
[[BR]]22:05 < Shachar> but OpenOffice uses it, and it's not good enough for my liking
[[BR]]22:05 <@nadim> Shachar: as far as I know there was no "proper" standard (unicode or similar) that talked abotu this
[[BR]]22:05 < Shachar> not an accepted standard
[[BR]]22:05 <@nadim> Shachar: can you give me a link to Mati's doc
[[BR]]22:05 < Shachar> which is good, because I don't like the current proposals :-)
[[BR]]22:05 < Shachar> lemme see
[[BR]]22:05 <@nadim> Shachar: I know about this due to some past mlterm work (and me doing debug on it)
[[BR]]22:06 <@nadim> Shachar: on mlterm we ended up coming up with ALOT of our own "seems logical" rules and we had nothing to turn to to see how things are supposed to work
[[BR]]22:06 <@nadim> Shachar: and now PuTTY is in the same boat
[[BR]]22:06 <@nadim> we need to add those abilites to PuTTY and have the same problem with no spec to follow
[[BR]]22:06 <@nadim> and you seem to be doing the same thing (or about to anyways :-)
[[BR]]22:07 <@nadim> seems like its about time to put all this into a doc and try to get it adopted
[[BR]]22:07 < Shachar> yeah, though the putty guys insist on reinventing the wheel
[[BR]]22:07 <@nadim> I know for instance the xterm folk complain and say "no, we are not interested in adding arabic support since there is no spec that outlines how it is to be done"
[[BR]]22:07 < Shachar> the way they (you?) wouldn't use fribidi as a library was disturbing to me
[[BR]]22:08 <@nadim> Shachar: we circumvented that issue :-)
[[BR]]22:08 < Shachar> you wrote your own
[[BR]]22:08 < Shachar> I know
[[BR]]22:08 <@nadim> it was they - not us - due to license issues
[[BR]]22:08 < Shachar> nonsense. License had nothing to do with it
[[BR]]22:08 < Shachar> putty is GPL, right?
[[BR]]22:08 <@nadim> no, its MIT
[[BR]]22:08 < mako-sama> MIT, iirc
[[BR]]22:08 < yebyen> CodeWarrior: hi there
[[BR]]22:08 < Shachar> if they wanted to use it, they could have put it in a DLL, and it would be ok
[[BR]]22:09 < yebyen> CodeWarrior: yeah, cs major and arabic minor makes me interested in this stuff :)
[[BR]]22:09 < Shachar> they just didn't want putty to depend on ANYTHING
[[BR]]22:09 < mako-sama> Shachar: the problem is that putty was being distroed as a single file
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[[BR]]22:09 <@nadim> Shachar: it was easier to get it done than to argue :-)
[[BR]]22:09 < Shachar> oh well.
[[BR]]22:09 < Shachar> it actually has a rather nice installer now
[[BR]]22:09 < Shachar> (and a winelib version for linux - that was a funny one)
[[BR]]22:10 <@nadim> Shachar: so the point about a doc/spec still stands
[[BR]]22:10 < yebyen> there's an installer for putty?
[[BR]]22:11 < Shachar> document at http://imagic.weizmann.ac.il/~dov/Hebrew/logicUI24.htm
[[BR]]22:11 < Shachar> I have to warn you, though. Some of the things there are not good
[[BR]]22:11 <@nadim> a couple of people (including me) would be interested to look into such issues and we have 2 vehicles to test all this out on (and I can contact the mlterm author again for his input)
[[BR]]22:11 < mako-sama> so.. different bidi implementations, different uses.
[[BR]]22:13 <@nadim> Shachar: ok...  Any interest on your end to revamp/rework to result in a proper doc ?
[[BR]]22:13 < Shachar> a lot of interest
[[BR]]22:14 <@nadim> Shachar: will you be around for Ahmad.Khalifa's talk today ?
[[BR]]22:14 < Shachar> also - this doc is more or less ok for text editing. I don't like changing the input language parts
[[BR]]22:14 < Shachar> when's that
[[BR]]22:14 <@nadim>  21:30 - 22:00    Ahmad Khalifa          (Arabeyes - PuTTY/MiniBidi/CUPS)
[[BR]]22:14 < Shachar> that's UTC times?
[[BR]]22:14 <@nadim> yeah
[[BR]]22:14 < mako-sama> that should be interesting
[[BR]]22:14 < mako-sama> yah.. utc
[[BR]]22:14 < Shachar> 1am is too late for me
[[BR]]22:14 < Shachar> sorry
[[BR]]22:15 < Shachar> it's too hot here, and my house is not air conditioned
[[BR]]22:15 <@nadim> no big - I think we need to talk some other time anyways and include ahmad in all of this - I'll be in touch
[[BR]]22:15 < Shachar> sure thing
[[BR]]22:15 <@nadim> in 15 minutes we have the Lebanese LUG presenting
[[BR]]22:16 <@nadim> so anyone have any general questions/comments/ideas ?
[[BR]]22:16 < mako-sama> since we mentioned bidi... why behdad isn't here today ?
[[BR]]22:16 <@nadim> mako-sama: not sure
[[BR]]22:16 <@nadim> mako-sama: we sent mail to arabeyes' "announce" list
[[BR]]22:16 < mako-sama> yeah.. i got that
[[BR]]22:16 <@nadim> and its on our website...
[[BR]]22:16 < mako-sama> too busy, maybe :\
[[BR]]22:17 <@nadim> that's why we stress the importance of being on the 'announce' list - you get 1-2 emails a month max :-)
[[BR]]22:17 -!- Hisham[LB] [~hisham@ip68-227-245-202.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]22:17 < mako-sama> i really wanted to know how much work has been done already on fribidi's shaping code ;\
[[BR]]22:17 <@nadim> mako-sama: I don't think its there yet else we would have heard about a release
[[BR]]22:17 < abdo> Hisham[LB]: welcome! your up in a few minutes!
[[BR]]22:18 < Hisham[LB]> abdo: yup 
[[BR]]22:18 < abdo> nadim: This is Hisham Mardam Bey, he will be giving the presentation with Jad
[[BR]]22:18 <@nadim> abdo: great
[[BR]]22:18 <@nadim> Hisham[LB]: nice to meet ya
[[BR]]22:18 < mako-sama> mardam bey ?
[[BR]]22:18 < Jad> abdo, Hisham[LB] is not Hisham Mardam Bey!!!!!!!!!
[[BR]]22:18 < Jad> hisham is CodeWarrior
[[BR]]22:18 <@nadim> heheeh
[[BR]]22:18 < Hisham[LB]> nadim: ney Nadim, we've already met. (CodeWarrior)
[[BR]]22:18 < Hisham[LB]> ( =
[[BR]]22:19 < Jad> oops
[[BR]]22:19 < abdo> my mistake
[[BR]]22:19 < Hisham[LB]> Jad: yo
[[BR]]22:19 <@nadim> Hisham[LB]: you're that 4 screen hacker, right ?
[[BR]]22:19 < Jad> hello
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[[BR]]22:19 < Hisham[LB]> nadim: hahah. yea (=
[[BR]]22:19 -!- eMuleIRC1033-917 [~1033e917@dsl-80-46-22-155.access.as9105.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
[[BR]]22:19 < Jad> we start in 15 minutes.
[[BR]]22:20 < Hisham[LB]> *nods*
[[BR]]22:20 -!- wolfAlpha [~wolfAlpha@66-178-20-21.reverse.newskies.net] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]22:20 < wolfAlpha> sa3ideh yaba
[[BR]]22:20 < Hisham[LB]> wolfAlpha: lo
[[BR]]22:20 < abdo> wolfAlpha: sa3ideh
[[BR]]22:20 < wolfAlpha> shu yaba
[[BR]]22:21 < wolfAlpha> rayka
[[BR]]22:21 < abdo> rayka w tamam
[[BR]]22:21 < Jad> guys
[[BR]]22:21 < Jad> people in the llug
[[BR]]22:21 -!- BamBOOMboY [~BamBOO@66-178-20-21.reverse.newskies.net] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]22:21 -!- Shachar [~sun@line102-130.adsl.actcom.co.il] has quit ["leaving"]
[[BR]]22:21 < Jad> please append to your nick [lb]
[[BR]]22:21 -!- Jad is now known as Jad[LB]
[[BR]]22:21 < Hisham[LB]> (=
[[BR]]22:21 -!- Sherine [~Alfa@82.116.138.173] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]22:21 <@nadim> Hisham[LB]: I really wanted to get you on board - we never did find you anything interesting to do :-)
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[[BR]]22:22 < Hisham[LB]> nadim: heh, yea. (=
[[BR]]22:22 <@nadim> Hisham[LB]: let's hope that changes :-)
[[BR]]22:22 -!- BamBOOMboY is now known as BamBOOMBoY[LB]
[[BR]]22:22 <@nadim> hehe
[[BR]]22:22 < Hisham[LB]> nadim: sure thing, why not... (=
[[BR]]22:22 -!- Sherine is now known as Sherine[LB]
[[BR]]22:22 < wolfAlpha[LA]> eih, shu fee 
[[BR]]22:23 <@nadim> an army of [lb} folk :-)
[[BR]]22:23 < Jad[LB]> more to come!
[[BR]]22:23 < gloonie> Welcome [LB]!
[[BR]]22:23 < Hisham[LB]> we will rule everyone and everything. (=
[[BR]]22:23 <@nadim> good - the more the better
[[BR]]22:23 < Hisham[LB]> gloonie: thx
[[BR]]22:23 <@nadim> Hisham[LB]: as long as you are nice :-)
[[BR]]22:23 < Hisham[LB]> nadim: who said we werent "nice" ?
[[BR]]22:23 < Hisham[LB]> (=
[[BR]]22:24 <@nadim> no one - btw what does (= mean ?
[[BR]]22:24 < ashraf> Hisham[LB]: 
[[BR]]22:24 < mako-sama> :)
[[BR]]22:24 < wolfAlpha[LA]> nadim: I was niced down today 
[[BR]]22:24 < Hisham[LB]> (= is my own smiley, i just do it that way becaue i'm left handed.
[[BR]]22:24 < mako-sama> (: :)  (=  =)
[[BR]]22:24 < wolfAlpha[LA]> hmph, women 
[[BR]]22:24 < abdo> I think changing the nick to [LB] should be limited to whoever will be giving the presentation :)
[[BR]]22:24 < Hisham[LB]> heh
[[BR]]22:24 < mako-sama> women ?
[[BR]]22:25 < wolfAlpha[LA]> so, could someone tell me what's giong on in here
[[BR]]22:25 -!- NewComer [~newcomer@62.135.96.62] has quit [Connection timed out]
[[BR]]22:25 < BamBOOMBoY[LB]> abdo   what about putting another special character to the ones giving the presentation  ??
[[BR]]22:25 < Hisham[LB]> : I'm going to introduce the LLUG in a bit.
[[BR]]22:25 < abdo> wolfAlpha: this is the Arabeyes evolution party, celebrating the 3rd anniversary of Arabeyes's formulation
[[BR]]22:25 <@nadim> Hisham[LB]: do please hold on
[[BR]]22:25 < abdo> BamBOOMBoY: yep I guess that too
[[BR]]22:25 < Hisham[LB]> nadim: i was addressing that to wolfAlpha[LA]  (=
[[BR]]22:26 <@nadim> Hisham[LB]: ah, go right ahead :-)
[[BR]]22:26 < Hisham[LB]> nadim: (=
[[BR]]22:26 <@nadim> nothing like left-handed 4-monitored people taking charge :-)
[[BR]]22:26 < Hisham[LB]> nadim: heh. sure thing. (=
[[BR]]22:27 < abdo> wolfAlpha[LA]: lots of people have come here already and gave presentation about the various projects and how they relate to Arabization. Wine, Mdk, GNOME, etc...
[[BR]]22:27 < Hisham[LB]> so we're starting in 5 minutes?
[[BR]]22:27 < Hisham[LB]> or should I just start now?
[[BR]]22:27 <@nadim> 3-4 minutes
[[BR]]22:27 < Hisham[LB]> nadim: righto
[[BR]]22:27 -!- wolfAlpha[LA] is now known as wolfAlpha[LB]
[[BR]]22:27 <@nadim> everyone is more than welcome to stay the entire time
[[BR]]22:27 < Jad[LB]> Hisham[LB], I will do the intro ...
[[BR]]22:28 < Hisham[LB]> Jad[LB]: sure.
[[BR]]22:28 -!- SeeKeR [~RooT@62.135.4.138] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]22:28 < Jad[LB]> wa7de b wa7de :p
[[BR]]22:28 < abdo> nadim: I just wish anmar's presentation was a little earlier. its going to be 2:30 AM in .lb when he shows up
[[BR]]22:28 < Hisham[LB]> Jad[LB]: hehe
[[BR]]22:28 < wolfAlpha[LB]> abdo: you guys didn't talk to me yet 
[[BR]]22:28 <@nadim> abdo: if he shows up :-)
[[BR]]22:29 < abdo> wolfAlpha[LB]: I told you yesterday just before you left the meeting about this party :)
[[BR]]22:29 -!- L[o]nely [~zadsoluti@204.97.230.4] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
[[BR]]22:29 < wolfAlpha[LB]> nadim: what will he be talking about ?
[[BR]]22:29 <@nadim> arabbix
[[BR]]22:29 < wolfAlpha[LB]> interesting, I'll read the logs 
[[BR]]22:29 <@nadim> and I'm sure the Q&A will be very interesting :-)
[[BR]]22:29 < Jad[LB]> Hisham[LB], please save the logs
[[BR]]22:29  * Jad[LB] will post them at some later stage.
[[BR]]22:29 < abdo> Jad[LB]: we're logging everything
[[BR]]22:29 < mako-sama> many people here are logging
[[BR]]22:30 < Hisham[LB]> Jad[LB]: they're saved @ CodeWarrior 
[[BR]]22:30 <@nadim> yuyu: you there ?
[[BR]]22:30 < abdo> but if anmar makes me wait until 2:30 AM and then doesnt show up..... :/
[[BR]]22:30 < Jad[LB]> we only need our part :p
[[BR]]22:30 < abdo> :\
[[BR]]22:30 < mako-sama> and logs should be available where everyone can look at them
[[BR]]22:30 < mako-sama> i assume
[[BR]]22:30 <@nadim> how do I give/remove voice (+v) to someone ?
[[BR]]22:30 < Jad[LB]> !!
[[BR]]22:30 < mako-sama> nadim: /mode #arabeyes +v nickname
[[BR]]22:30 <@nadim> ah, thanks
[[BR]]22:30 < Jad[LB]>  /mode #arabeyes +v nick
[[BR]]22:30 < mako-sama> to remove, -v
[[BR]]22:31 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+v Jad[LB]] by nadim
[[BR]]22:31 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+v Hisham[LB]] by nadim
[[BR]]22:31  * Hisham[LB] browses slashdot
[[BR]]22:31 <+Jad[LB]> +m
[[BR]]22:31 <+Jad[LB]> please
[[BR]]22:31 <+Hisham[LB]> (=
[[BR]]22:31 <@nadim> Session to start NOW
[[BR]]22:31 < mako-sama> and /mode +m #arabeyes
[[BR]]22:31 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+m] by nadim
[[BR]]22:31 <+Jad[LB]> Hello,
[[BR]]22:31 <+Jad[LB]> Me (Jad Saklawi) and Hisham Mardam Bey are going to represent the llug
[[BR]]22:31 <+Jad[LB]> where llug = Lebanese Linux Users Group
[[BR]]22:32 <+Jad[LB]> our current corner of the net is on http://linux.com.lb
[[BR]]22:32 <+Jad[LB]> we communicate through a mailing list and face to face contact
[[BR]]22:32 <+Jad[LB]> unlike other user groups, we are actually more active in meetings than online
[[BR]]22:33 <+Jad[LB]> for information about the members please check out http://linux.com.lb/wiki/index.pl?node=Members
[[BR]]22:33 <+Jad[LB]> now Hisham[LB] will tell you more about the history of the llug
[[BR]]22:33 <+Hisham[LB]> ok, thanks Jad[LB] 
[[BR]]22:33 <+Hisham[LB]> right.
[[BR]]22:33 <+Hisham[LB]> the llug started at around 1995
[[BR]]22:33 <+Hisham[LB]> it was basically a mailing list which began at AUB
[[BR]]22:34 <+Hisham[LB]> at that time,
[[BR]]22:34 <+Hisham[LB]> it was only a couple of aub profs and some students.
[[BR]]22:34 <+Hisham[LB]> i personally joined that list at around 1998
[[BR]]22:34 -!- {DJ}[LB] [~toni@194.146.153.34] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]22:34 <+Hisham[LB]> from that point on,
[[BR]]22:34 <+Hisham[LB]> we continued talking online until 1999
[[BR]]22:34 <+Hisham[LB]> in 1999, we had out first face to face meeting.
[[BR]]22:35 -!- NewComer2 [~newcomer@62.135.96.248] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]22:35 <+Hisham[LB]> it was the first time we actually associated the faces to the names. (=
[[BR]]22:35 <+Hisham[LB]> the first "term" of our llug was lead by me,
[[BR]]22:35 <+Hisham[LB]> the current term is led by Jad.
[[BR]]22:35 <+Hisham[LB]> we started meeting every first thursday of every month,
[[BR]]22:36 <+Hisham[LB]> until about a ye3ar ago.
[[BR]]22:36 <+Hisham[LB]> right now,
[[BR]]22:36 <+Hisham[LB]> we meet 2 times a month.
[[BR]]22:36 <+Hisham[LB]> our current member count is around 140 people.
[[BR]]22:36 -!- NewComer2 [~newcomer@62.135.96.248] has left #arabeyes []
[[BR]]22:36 <+Hisham[LB]> and, we're hoping that after todays TV show,
[[BR]]22:36 <+Hisham[LB]> we'll grwo even more.
[[BR]]22:36 <+Hisham[LB]> (=
[[BR]]22:36 -!- NewComer [~newcomer@62.135.96.248] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]22:37 <+Hisham[LB]> thats the basic history of the LLUG folks. (=
[[BR]]22:37 <+Jad[LB]> Unlike other lugs
[[BR]]22:37 <+Jad[LB]> we actually exist
[[BR]]22:37 <+Hisham[LB]> right.
[[BR]]22:37 <+Jad[LB]> I receive phone calls from lug members than i receive emails.
[[BR]]22:37 <+Jad[LB]> Currently we are working on the media
[[BR]]22:37 <+Jad[LB]> we have been featured on Assafir newspaper a couple of days ago,
[[BR]]22:38 <+Jad[LB]> and on Future T.V today
[[BR]]22:38 <+Hisham[LB]> I think we can talk about some of our projects now. Why dont we start with our biggest project, Embark.
[[BR]]22:38 <+Jad[LB]> and on NBN TV next week (You are the first guys to know)
[[BR]]22:38 <+Hisham[LB]> shall I ?
[[BR]]22:38 <+Jad[LB]> sure
[[BR]]22:38 <+Hisham[LB]> great. (=
[[BR]]22:39 <+Hisham[LB]> Embark is our LLUG's distro.
[[BR]]22:39 <+Hisham[LB]> The project started off around 4 monthes ago.
[[BR]]22:39 <+Hisham[LB]> The main developers are me and Jad.
[[BR]]22:39 <+Hisham[LB]> at first,
[[BR]]22:39 <+Hisham[LB]> we started Embark as a knoppix clone with a heavily modified desktop.
[[BR]]22:39 <+Hisham[LB]> our main aims were the following.
[[BR]]22:40 <+Hisham[LB]> 1- Launch the first Lebanese distro.
[[BR]]22:40 <+Hisham[LB]> 2- Have excelent arabic support
[[BR]]22:40 <+Hisham[LB]> 3- HAve a *really* attractive desktop.
[[BR]]22:40 <+Hisham[LB]> one of the main attractions is the whole "first impression" thing.
[[BR]]22:41 <+Hisham[LB]> so basically,
[[BR]]22:41 <+Hisham[LB]> we want to have a desktop that'd really make your jaw drop.
[[BR]]22:41 <+Hisham[LB]> (=
[[BR]]22:41 <+Hisham[LB]> we also want it to be a speedy desktop.
[[BR]]22:41 <+Hisham[LB]> its a difficult task.
[[BR]]22:42 <+Hisham[LB]> We decide go with EFL (Enlightenment Foundation Libraries) (www.enlightenment.org)
[[BR]]22:43 <+Jad[LB]> Path ?
[[BR]]22:44 <@nadim> did we lose Hisham[LB] ?
[[BR]]22:44 <+Jad[LB]> one sec
[[BR]]22:45 <+Jad[LB]> wolfAlpha[LB], will take over
[[BR]]22:46 <+Jad[LB]> nadim, please voice wolfAlpha[LB]
[[BR]]22:46 <+Jad[LB]> any way, a couple of weeks ago
[[BR]]22:46 <+Jad[LB]> we decided to change our distro`s path
[[BR]]22:46 <+Jad[LB]> with an app called path.
[[BR]]22:46 <+Jad[LB]> please check out http://wolf.funinc.org/b2evo/blogs/linux.php
[[BR]]22:46 <+Jad[LB]> for more information about path
[[BR]]22:46 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+v wolfAlpha[LB]] by nadim
[[BR]]22:47 <+Jad[LB]> wolfAlpha[LB], wish to add anything ?
[[BR]]22:47 <+wolfAlpha[LB]> well, the thing was that at one time the idea of a Knoppix clone became less attractive. 
[[BR]]22:48 <+wolfAlpha[LB]> and, we felt that the same goal was being worked on by so many people around. 
[[BR]]22:48 <+wolfAlpha[LB]> I mean, you guys have Arabbix, that with a bit more help to the main dev. would become the de-facto Arabic distro out there
[[BR]]22:48 <@nadim> should we open it up for questions - we don't have much time left
[[BR]]22:48 <+wolfAlpha[LB]> not that it doesn't look very nice already. 
[[BR]]22:48 <+Jad[LB]> nadim, wait
[[BR]]22:49 <+Jad[LB]> We have various activities.
[[BR]]22:49 <+wolfAlpha[LB]> well, the idea was to go for something different: a meta-distribution, and you can read all about it in the link Jad already gave
[[BR]]22:49 <+wolfAlpha[LB]> that's about it.. .
[[BR]]22:49 <+Jad[LB]> We do lectures @ universities, tutorials for the llug members, offer emails, support, advocate, etc...
[[BR]]22:49 <+Jad[LB]> again please go to http://linux.com.lb
[[BR]]22:50 <+Jad[LB]> OH, please subscribe to the mailing list :)
[[BR]]22:50 <+Jad[LB]> now it is Q&A time.
[[BR]]22:50 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-m] by nadim
[[BR]]22:50 -!- ashraf [~ashraf@213.185.122.17] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
[[BR]]22:50 <+Jad[LB]> It happens in lebanon that we have a sucky connection
[[BR]]22:50 <+Jad[LB]> this is one of the times :!@
[[BR]]22:50 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-v Hisham[LB]] by nadim
[[BR]]22:50 < abdo> Jad[LB]: I've done my share of complaining :)
[[BR]]22:50 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-v Jad[LB]] by nadim
[[BR]]22:51 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-v wolfAlpha[LB]] by nadim
[[BR]]22:51 < Jad[LB]> questions~~~!!!!!1
[[BR]]22:51 < BamBOOMBoY[LB]> Jad[LB]  if we do programming can we join the developpement team ?
[[BR]]22:51 -!- hisham[lb_] [~hisham@ip68-227-245-202.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]22:51 <@nadim> why not work on arabbix instead a new distro ?
[[BR]]22:51 < abdo> I got a question, unless anyone else wants to go first
[[BR]]22:51 < Jad[LB]> k
[[BR]]22:51 < hisham[lb_]> sorry folks, my isp took a crap. (=
[[BR]]22:51 < Jad[LB]> nadim, we are less arabic oriented
[[BR]]22:51 < Jad[LB]> unfortounatly
[[BR]]22:51 < hisham[lb_]> did we talk about Path yet?
[[BR]]22:51 <@nadim> Jad[LB]: where there be interested in helping out with arabbix
[[BR]]22:52 < Jad[LB]> well
[[BR]]22:52 < abdo> hisham[lb_]: we went there
[[BR]]22:52 <@nadim> hisham[lb_]: it was mentioned without definition :-)
[[BR]]22:52 < Jad[LB]> I posted several posts to the mailing list
[[BR]]22:52 < Jad[LB]> none was interested.
[[BR]]22:52 < Jad[LB]> abdo, your question please
[[BR]]22:52 <@nadim> may I ask why not ?
[[BR]]22:52 < Jad[LB]> abdo, can give you the answer
[[BR]]22:52 < BamBOOMBoY[LB]> may i ask a question ?
[[BR]]22:52 -!- Mohamad[LB] [~mohamad_k@212.98.158.143] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]22:52 < Jad[LB]> BamBOOMBoY[LB], one sec.
[[BR]]22:52 <@nadim> BamBOOMBoY[LB]: go ahead
[[BR]]22:52 < hisham[lb_]> nadim: we dont have dedicated devs. the only people willing to really work on this are like 3.
[[BR]]22:53 < mako-sama> you guys said that you currently meet twice a month, that's very interesting. I just would like to know what you guys do in your meetings ? 
[[BR]]22:53 < Jad[LB]> mako-sama, http://linux.com.lb/wiki/index.pl?node=minutes
[[BR]]22:53 < mako-sama> any specific topics to discuss or just hang around :) ?
[[BR]]22:53 < abdo> mako-sama: we do well... very well :)
[[BR]]22:53 < hisham[lb_]> let me answer that one.
[[BR]]22:53 < Jad[LB]> we even have some pics you can dig on the website.
[[BR]]22:53 < BamBOOMBoY[LB]> nadim     if we do programming can we join the developpement team ?
[[BR]]22:53 < Jad[LB]> mako-sama, minutes
[[BR]]22:53 <@nadim> hisham[lb_]: we have 1 possibly 2 after today - the point being I think it would be wise if we all collobrated on our various distros to help each ohter out
[[BR]]22:54 < hisham[lb_]> mako-sama: we usually talk about (1) newbiwe help (2) technical (difficult) topics (3) discuss organizational matters.
[[BR]]22:54 <@nadim> hisham[lb_]: its not a question of arabbix vs .... or .... its a question of for instance putting together the docs and references for people to know how to do all this, etc
[[BR]]22:54 < Jad[LB]> true
[[BR]]22:54 < hisham[lb_]> nadim: i agree
[[BR]]22:54 < mako-sama> hisham[lb_]: that sounds boring to do twice a month for an extended period of time :)
[[BR]]22:54 < Jad[LB]> nadim, but we even communicate in english
[[BR]]22:54 < Jad[LB]> and maybe arabic is not on the top of the list for the time being.
[[BR]]22:55 < BamBOOMBoY[LB]> Jad[LB]  Quest. plz
[[BR]]22:55 < hisham[lb_]> nadim: once we develop path, we can use arabbix. ?
[[BR]]22:55 <@nadim> hisham[lb_]: we'll need to talk later as the time is limited here
[[BR]]22:55 < Jad[LB]> BamBOOMBoY[LB], go on please
[[BR]]22:55 < hisham[lb_]> mako-sama: it isnt. (=
[[BR]]22:55 < hisham[lb_]> nadim: sure
[[BR]]22:55 <@nadim> what is path again ?
[[BR]]22:55 < BamBOOMBoY[LB]> Jad[LB]  if we do programming can we join the developpement team ?
[[BR]]22:55 < abdo> here is my question: please explain the concept of a meta-distro
[[BR]]22:55 < Jad[LB]> BamBOOMBoY[LB], please contact nadim regarding that
[[BR]]22:55 < hisham[lb_]> nadim: path is a way to build a distro.
[[BR]]22:55 <@nadim> ah, ok
[[BR]]22:55 <@nadim> its a cooker of sorts
[[BR]]22:55 < hisham[lb_]> ok, let me handle path.
[[BR]]22:55 -!- olimar [~olimar@p213.54.89.75.tisdip.tiscali.de] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]22:55 < Mohamad[LB]> ok i have a question for u guys
[[BR]]22:56 <@nadim> the .eg LUG noted having GREAT success with their installfest any thoughts on that topic ?
[[BR]]22:56 < hisham[lb_]> path allows you to get a VERY minimalistic distro, and follow / trace a certain pathh.
[[BR]]22:56 < hisham[lb_]> whats a path?
[[BR]]22:56 < hisham[lb_]> right...
[[BR]]22:56 < Mohamad[LB]> today on the tv u said that linux is better than windows
[[BR]]22:56 < hisham[lb_]> for example:
[[BR]]22:56 < Jad[LB]> Mohamad[LB], can you be more specific in your question please
[[BR]]22:56 < hisham[lb_]> path -follow phpsql-webserver
[[BR]]22:56 < Mohamad[LB]> but we see that ppl like windows more than linux
[[BR]]22:57 < hisham[lb_]> this will turn your minimalistic install to a fully functional / configured php/apache/sql box.
[[BR]]22:57 < mako-sama> Mohamad[LB]: do they know linux ?
[[BR]]22:57 < hisham[lb_]> now the kewl thing here is,
[[BR]]22:57 -!- munzir [~munzir@212.71.43.12] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]22:57 < hisham[lb_]> it can do it for gentoo, debian, etc.
[[BR]]22:57 < Mohamad[LB]> yeah
[[BR]]22:57 < hisham[lb_]> it can even replace the sql server.
[[BR]]22:57 < hisham[lb_]> like:
[[BR]]22:57 < hisham[lb_]> MySQL, Postgres etc...
[[BR]]22:57 < hisham[lb_]> now why is it kelw?
[[BR]]22:57 <@nadim> Jad[LB]: would you also say that your LUG is more members oriented where-as .eg LUG is more community-centric (ie. due to their visits to .edu/.org/.com, etc and their evangalism, etc) ?
[[BR]]22:58 < hisham[lb_]> say you build your distro once, and you "trace" a certain path.
[[BR]]22:58 < mako-sama> Mohamad[LB]: My mom didn't like linux when i told her about it.. all i needed was to reformat the computer and put linux on it for a week (and say that it's temp coz i don't have windows CDs)
[[BR]]22:58 < hisham[lb_]> all you need to do is write a path file, and anyone else can walk that path again.
[[BR]]22:58 < Jad[LB]> nadim, nope
[[BR]]22:58 < hisham[lb_]> or even for you, in case you wanted to reinstall / do multiple installs.
[[BR]]22:58 < Jad[LB]> We are a mix of various people with different backgrounds
[[BR]]22:58 < abdo> nadim: actually the LLUG is very community oriented
[[BR]]22:58 < Jad[LB]> each with his own interests..
[[BR]]22:59 < Jad[LB]> we actually do visits to .edu/.org/.com visits too..
[[BR]]22:59 <@nadim> Jad[LB]: ah, ok
[[BR]]22:59 < wolfAlpha[LB]> nadim: I wanted to comment on your question about not working with you on Arabbix
[[BR]]22:59 <@nadim> Jad[LB]: how much contact do you guys have with other LUGs ?
[[BR]]22:59 <@nadim> wolfAlpha[LB]: you have 2 minutes :-)
[[BR]]22:59 < Jad[LB]> nadim, personally I have contacted most of the other llugs
[[BR]]22:59 < wolfAlpha[LB]> thanks.
[[BR]]22:59 <@nadim> Jad[LB]: do you see a need/benefit from mutual cooperation with other LUGs ?
[[BR]]23:00 < wolfAlpha[LB]> the thing is Arabbix is a very good project, and I believe that some people from the LLUG are actually contributing to Arabbix. ie. abdo. 
[[BR]]23:00 < Jad[LB]> nadim, sure
[[BR]]23:00 < olimar> Salam
[[BR]]23:00 < Jad[LB]> any thing that will help advocate free software is welcome.
[[BR]]23:00 <@nadim> Jad[LB]: finally - we need to get someone to helpout with OpenArabia.org (the site needs to be revamped and rebuilt, etc)
[[BR]]23:00 < wolfAlpha[LB]> the problem we have here in Lebanon is that most of our developpers/computer scientists do not even use arabic.
[[BR]]23:00 < abdo> olimar: salam
[[BR]]23:00 < wolfAlpha[LB]> and most do not even have arabic installed on their systems. 
[[BR]]23:00 < Mohamad[LB]> ok
[[BR]]23:01 < Mohamad[LB]> for site building i can help
[[BR]]23:01 < BamBOOMBoY[LB]> nadim   i can help with that
[[BR]]23:01 -!- cooling [~cooling@213.186.171.66] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]23:01 <@nadim> Jad[LB] / hisham[lb_] / wolfAlpha[LB] : thank you gents for your presentation and your continued hard work !!  We expect alot from you guys and we _know_ you'll deliver.  Thanks again for taking the time out and talking to everyone
[[BR]]23:01 <@nadim> *** DING DING DING ****
[[BR]]23:01 < olimar> Wolf, why is there a very negative view towards Arabic in Linux?
[[BR]]23:01 <@nadim> 19:00 - 19:30    Pavel Janik/Eike Rathke(OpenOffice.org)
[[BR]]23:01 <@nadim> paveljanik: you there ?
[[BR]]23:01 < hisham[lb_]> nadim: thank you for giving us the time (=
[[BR]]23:01 < abdo> Ok, OOo time
[[BR]]23:02 < paveljanik> nadim: yes, I'm here.
[[BR]]23:02 <@nadim> hisham[lb_]: our pleasure - we have to see alot more of all of you (and YOU esp :-)
[[BR]]23:02 <@nadim> paveljanik: ready ?
[[BR]]23:02 < paveljanik> yes
[[BR]]23:02 < Jad[LB]> LB guys
[[BR]]23:02 < wolfAlpha[LB]> olimar: not negative, just people are not used to it. 
[[BR]]23:02 < Jad[LB]> please continue the talks in #linuxlb
[[BR]]23:02 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+v paveljanik] by nadim
[[BR]]23:02 -!- Hisham[LB] [~hisham@ip68-227-245-202.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
[[BR]]23:02 < hisham[lb_]> nadim: I'll join this place regularly then. (= I'm off for now.
[[BR]]23:02 < hisham[lb_]> take care people.
[[BR]]23:02 < wolfAlpha[LB]> if you'd like to continue the discussions we're in linuxlb
[[BR]]23:02 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+m] by nadim
[[BR]]23:02 -!- erAck [~er@fw-out.stardiv.de] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]23:02 -!- hisham[lb_] [~hisham@ip68-227-245-202.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit]
[[BR]]23:02 <+paveljanik> so, erAck is here too now. I'd start with introducing myself.
[[BR]]23:03 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+v erAck] by nadim
[[BR]]23:03 <+paveljanik> I'm Pavel Janik, lead of Czech Native-Lang project, co-lead of l10n project and member of OpenOffice.org Community Council.
[[BR]]23:04 <+paveljanik> Czech project offers his build system for GNU/Linux, MS Windows, FreeBSD and Solaris/SPARC to other teams to provide their build of OpenOffice.org.
[[BR]]23:04 <+paveljanik> Arabic support was recently added and people like Munzir Taha and his group are working hard to make it better.
[[BR]]23:05 -!- hakim [~hakim@host217-44-100-250.range217-44.btcentralplus.com] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]23:05 -!- Jad[LB] [~Jad@82.116.136.57] has left #arabeyes []
[[BR]]23:05 -!- Jad [~Jad@82.116.136.57] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]23:05 <+paveljanik> We are very happy to see Arabic speaking people to enjoy OOo and we hope to help them (and hope they help us ;-)
[[BR]]23:05 -!- cuco [~cuco@bzq-218-235-242.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]23:06 <+paveljanik> erAck: your time ;-)
[[BR]]23:06 <+erAck> I'm Eike Rathke, co-lead of Calc, the spreadsheet application, and also responsible for coordinating the application relevant work in the i18n framework.
[[BR]]23:07 <+erAck> Currently that mainly means adding new locale data, give Karl Hong a helping hand, who implemented most of the CJK i18n things.
[[BR]]23:08 <+erAck> And give all the collegues advice how to handle things.
[[BR]]23:09 <+erAck> ok with me
[[BR]]23:09 <@nadim> ok, Q&A time
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[[BR]]23:10 <@nadim> paveljanik / erAck : thank you gents for helping out and coming today - we know you are busy and time is of essense...
[[BR]]23:10 <@nadim> paveljanik: you noted that you would appreciate help from us - can you elaborate ?
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[[BR]]23:11 < munzir> paveljanik: I would like to thank you a lot for your great help regarding the Arabic translation
[[BR]]23:11 <+paveljanik> nadim: as you probably know (or can guess ;-) I (and I suspect Eike too) do not speak Arabic nor can read it. Arabic has different script than most latin languages so we need your help in identifieg and fixing issues connected with writing from right to left.
[[BR]]23:11 < munzir> paveljanik: Also let me announce that we have finished the translation of oo.o 100%
[[BR]]23:11 < olimar> pavel, how does the pdf export system work on OOo?
[[BR]]23:11 <+paveljanik> munzir already started to work on that but I think we need more people to work on it.
[[BR]]23:12 < olimar> I mean can we simply export Arabi written text to pdf in OOo?
[[BR]]23:12 <@nadim> paveljanik: working on translations you mean ?
[[BR]]23:12 < munzir> paveljanik had made a built. pavel can you post a link here to the snapshots and to the build
[[BR]]23:12 < cuco> olimar, i dont have problems with hebrew here
[[BR]]23:12 <+paveljanik> nadim: no, as munzir just said, translations is finished. So you only need to work on proofreading etc.
[[BR]]23:12 < hakim_IraqLUG> So noe OOo is fully translated?
[[BR]]23:12 < hakim_IraqLUG> noe=now
[[BR]]23:12 < olimar> cuco, but mind that hebrew has generally better support then Arabic
[[BR]]23:12 <+paveljanik> olimar: I haven't tested it with your script yet.
[[BR]]23:12 < munzir> I would also like to thank KACST who gave me the time to do it.
[[BR]]23:13 <@nadim> paveljanik: I was more concerned with the functionality than the translations to be honest :-)
[[BR]]23:13 < olimar> pavel ic
[[BR]]23:13 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-v paveljanik] by nadim
[[BR]]23:13 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-v erAck] by nadim
[[BR]]23:13 < munzir> erAck: since you are responsible of calc. What about calc dealing with hindi numbers?
[[BR]]23:13 < XSnack> c++ -O3 -Wall -pedantic -fno-exceptions -c xhtmlgenerator.cpp
[[BR]]23:13 < XSnack> c++: Internal error: Segmentation fault (program cc1plus)
[[BR]]23:13 < XSnack> Please submit a full bug report.
[[BR]]23:13 <@yuyu> paveljanik, what can be done from the bidi side, shaping side etc ?
[[BR]]23:13 < cuco> olimar, if it's showen on screen it should work on the printing (and pdf). do you have problems with arabic? 
[[BR]]23:13 < XSnack> ups sorry guys
[[BR]]23:14 < XSnack> wrong channel
[[BR]]23:14 < olimar> cuco showing on screen and printing a file are two substantially different processes
[[BR]]23:14 <@yuyu> wxhehe
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[[BR]]23:14 < XSnack> salam :)
[[BR]]23:14 < paveljanik> nadim: yes, see our IssueZilla, e.g. http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=32179
[[BR]]23:14 < olimar> pavel, when comparing gnome and OOo trnaslations
[[BR]]23:14 < cuco> olimar, they are...?
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[[BR]]23:14 < olimar> I feel gnome is very easy, you have a cvs tree an irc channel a mailing list, how do you want to improve contact with groups like us in the future?
[[BR]]23:15 < paveljanik> yuyu: we need to first identify potential problems. Remember that our builds (munzir will give you URLs, etc.) are really young ;-)
[[BR]]23:15 < paveljanik> When we (with your help) identify issues we can set timeframe for fixing them etc.
[[BR]]23:15 <@yuyu> paveljanik, ok. noted.
[[BR]]23:15 < erAck> munzir: hindi numbers are handled by the number formatter, need some [natnum#] in front of the format code, with # being a digit from 1-9, though I don't have present right now which digit it is..
[[BR]]23:15 < BamBOOMBoY[LB]> paveljanik   i used the open office i liked it and if keep on working on it, i'm sure u can make it better than the latest versions of microsoft office
[[BR]]23:16 <@yuyu> paveljanik, is it easy for a newbie (from the OOo) perspective) to actually code
[[BR]]23:16 < olimar> pavel, I feel especially the OOo project needs much support from scripting technology ppl like us for eg. so I hope we can imporve work together
[[BR]]23:16 < munzir> paveljanik: I have filed some bugs in the IZ and linked to it from www.arabeyes.org/OpenBugs.
[[BR]]23:16 < paveljanik> olimar: the mechanisms for translations are really inefficient in OOo, but Czech team initiated the mechanism for doing translations via PO files. And in fact, Arabic was translated using PO files.
[[BR]]23:16 < paveljanik> please slow down ;-)
[[BR]]23:16 < olimar> I think some time in the future we will have big linux deployments and having a working technology under OOo for ARabic scripts is good
[[BR]]23:16 < olimar> and maybe very much needed
[[BR]]23:17 < paveljanik> BamBOOMBoY[LB]: Please keep in mind, that our project is named OpenOffice.org. It is really important to use the correct name from several reasons: legal, marketing and so on :-)
[[BR]]23:17 < olimar> yep pavel I wanted to speak about this too
[[BR]]23:17 < munzir> paveljanik: things like arabic is broken after a dot and arabic is not usable because of freetype hinting code is a big hinderance if not solved in time.
[[BR]]23:17 < olimar> it is very hard to not work with pos nowadays
[[BR]]23:17 < paveljanik> BamBOOMBoY[LB]: Thanks (about you MS part ;-)
[[BR]]23:17 < olimar> maintaining the whole, managing the files and the quality of the work etc...
[[BR]]23:18 < paveljanik> olimar: We are working hard on supporting scripting - have you seen Scripting Framework yet?
[[BR]]23:18 < olimar> pavel, What do you mean by scripting framework?
[[BR]]23:18 <@nadim> munzir: I agree the freetype issue needs a speedy solution
[[BR]]23:19 < paveljanik> munzir: I know and this is where we need your help: identify problems, file issues in OOo (or Freetype, ...) bug tracking systems. I'd suggest creating META-issu in IssueZilla to track Arabic issues. I'll file one today and will post you its number.
[[BR]]23:20 <@nadim> paveljanik: who is the proper person/list to contact when things don't seem to get done (ie. when all else fails)
[[BR]]23:20 < BamBOOMBoY[LB]> paveljanik   welcome and by the way it was impossible to use the arabic language on other web developpement progs so i used the Html Document from the OpenOffice.org and it worked !!
[[BR]]23:20 < munzir> The screenshots of the arabic interface could be found here http://tmp.janik.cz/OpenOffice.org/Arabic/Screenshots/
[[BR]]23:20 < olimar> pavel this sounds very funny maybe but as there is some integration between OOo and gnome do you plan anytime to make a version of OOo which uses pango?
[[BR]]23:20 < paveljanik> olimar: ah I misunderstood your term "scripting". You were probablu talking about Arabic script, I was thinking about using scripts to controll OpenOffice.org.
[[BR]]23:20 < wolfAlpha[LB]> paveljanik: how fast is the bug fixing process on OpenOffice.org? I mean with Sun running things ?
[[BR]]23:20 <@nadim> munzir: do please upload 'em to art.arabeyes.org when you get a chance
[[BR]]23:20 < munzir> screenshot015 shows the floating point error mentioned just now
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[[BR]]23:21 < munzir> nadim: I will
[[BR]]23:21 <@nadim> thanks
[[BR]]23:21 < olimar> Yes that's what I ment, I was a little bit irritated too ;)
[[BR]]23:21 < munzir> paveljanik: I will keep mentioning www.arabeyes.org/OpenBugs as the one place where you could find all the bugs related to Arabic in the apps ;)
[[BR]]23:22 < paveljanik> wolfAlpha[LB]: there are several issues connected with fixing problems. It is o\not always as easy as commiting one line fix. People from Sun Microsystems (I'm not employed by them nor work for them ;-) do their best to help the community. But of course it is not always optimal from the community point of view. They have their timeframes, their TODOs, ...
[[BR]]23:22 < olimar> but I never met a scripting framework which could extend OOos abalities
[[BR]]23:22 < olimar> OOo is very difficult software to work on
[[BR]]23:22 < paveljanik> munzir: OK, but we need OOo's issue too so people interested in supporting Arabic in OOo can add themself to CC:.
[[BR]]23:22 < olimar> will there be any rewrtie of the code ?
[[BR]]23:23 < cuco> paveljanik, i have a lot of doc files with formulas which still do not render properly even under development versions. is this an importer issue or rendering issue?
[[BR]]23:23 < erAck> munzir: rearding hinddi numbering: seems I mixed that up.. I was speaking of the single digits used in Arabic scripts, not the entire 100 words that are used in hindi numbers, sorry.
[[BR]]23:23 <@nadim> olimar: hehe
[[BR]]23:23 < amaoui> pavel:one of the most anoying bug reagarding arabic is when 'harakat' are used. Build m47 is somewhat better than oo1.x, but it's not perfect as you can see from this screen shot http://amaoui.free.fr/misc/images/oo-ar.png
[[BR]]23:23 < paveljanik> olimar: The scripting framewrok lets you connect from several scripting languages. We now have PyUNO, people started working on TclUNO etc. So it seems to be simple (at least for them ;-).
[[BR]]23:24 < olimar> ok :) convinced ;)
[[BR]]23:24 < paveljanik> cuco: I'd suggest filling issues to IssueZilla. Please attach documents, screenshots from OOo and screenshots from e.g. commercial applications. Supporting formulas is very important for me too!
[[BR]]23:24 < BamBOOMBoY[LB]> paveljanik   welcome and by the way it was impossible tpaveljanik   i have a suggestion for OpenOfice.org can i say it ?
[[BR]]23:24 <@nadim> paveljanik: no perl :-)
[[BR]]23:24 <@nadim> hehe
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[[BR]]23:25 < paveljanik> nadim: yes this is also mine rule: NoPerl (tm) ;-)
[[BR]]23:25 < paveljanik> BamBOOMBoY[LB]: of course :-)
[[BR]]23:25 <@nadim> heehe
[[BR]]23:25 < cuco> paveljanik, Shoshana Forbes is handeling this. She is commiting bugs for me. However I still find OO.ord very unsuable just because of this issue. 
[[BR]]23:25 < BamBOOMBoY[LB]> sorry 
[[BR]]23:26 <@nadim> We need to wrap-up here as the next event is to start in 5 minutes given Owen Taylor is here :-)
[[BR]]23:26 < paveljanik> cuco: can you send me some IZ number to mail so I can look how it is?
[[BR]]23:26 < BamBOOMBoY[LB]> paveljanik  it's about the HTML Documents shall i say it here or what ?
[[BR]]23:26 < munzir> erAck: I mean the single digits used in arabic scripts which is referenced in Unicode as Arabic-Indic or something similar. Can we for example have them mixed with Arabic-European digits in a document in an easy way
[[BR]]23:26 < paveljanik> BamBOOMBoY[LB]: I'd suggest using OOo mailing lists like users or discuss.
[[BR]]23:26 < cuco> paveljanik, sure. i will send them in private in a few minutes. (+m)
[[BR]]23:27 < paveljanik> BamBOOMBoY[LB]: people there are very active and can help you with your problem or can help you identify if this feature is going to be supported in 2.0 or similar.
[[BR]]23:27 < paveljanik> cuco: pjanik@oo.o - you know how to expand it :-)
[[BR]]23:28 < paveljanik> I hope we answer most question - should you have more - do not hesitate to contact me on the above mentioned address.
[[BR]]23:28 < paveljanik> Thank you for your invitation!
[[BR]]23:28 < munzir> paveljanik, erAck: We don't have a context numbering scheme. I mean when we type arabic arabic-indic numbers come whereas when typing Engish Arabic-European numbers display as an option
[[BR]]23:28 < munzir> paveljanik, erAck: this is needed in writer and other apps
[[BR]]23:28 <@yuyu> paveljanik, thank you very much for coming
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[[BR]]23:29 < erAck> munzir: ok, the digits are supported. Yes, you can mix the representation in a document.
[[BR]]23:29 <@nadim> paveljanik / erAck : thank you again gents for coming and presenting and taking out Q's and being simply helpfully all around - thanks again
[[BR]]23:29 < BamBOOMBoY[LB]> paveljanik  i want to report something to help :) it's not about helping me it's about helping u to impruve the HTML Code
[[BR]]23:29 <@yuyu> paveljanik, you can always come to this channel for tech. stuff :)
[[BR]]23:29 < erAck> All depends simply on the number format assigned to a cell.
[[BR]]23:29 < munzir> erAck: I will check and report back
[[BR]]23:30 <@nadim> Owen Taylor is next - so we can run into his time upto the point when he shows up
[[BR]]23:30 <@nadim> ie. this is dead time now :-)
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[[BR]]23:30 < paveljanik> yuyu: Good offer :-)
[[BR]]23:30 < olimar_> excuse me got kicked out
[[BR]]23:30 <@nadim> yuyu: you need to entice him with food or something ;-)
[[BR]]23:31 <@kuru> man, I missed the OOo
[[BR]]23:31 <@nadim> kuru: there is a schedule you know :-)
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[[BR]]23:31 < abdo> kuru: serves you right :)
[[BR]]23:31 <@yuyu> nadim, hehe
[[BR]]23:31 <@kuru> nadim: yeah.. and I'm also a human being with needs to move, perform certain bodily maintenance activities, etc.
[[BR]]23:31 <@kuru> abdo: blue
[[BR]]23:31 <@kuru> s/blue/bleh
[[BR]]23:31 < olimar_> pavel will there be some complete transition to pos for OOo in the future?
[[BR]]23:31 <@yuyu> kurudid you take a rest ,
[[BR]]23:32 < olimar_> so that the source comes with pos out? 
[[BR]]23:32 <@kuru> yuyu: no, actually I had a few errands I had to do
[[BR]]23:32 <@nadim> kuru: body maintaince, what's that ;-)
[[BR]]23:32 <@kuru> yuyu: so unless you call being stuck in traffic rest, it wasn't ;)
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[[BR]]23:32 <@kuru> nadim: food, sleep, and the other stuff ;)
[[BR]]23:33 < paveljanik> olimar_: it is quite hard to say because there are several issues connected with it. We currently evaluate the possibilities. On the other hand, using PO files is possible for about two years now ;-)
[[BR]]23:33 <@nadim> paveljanik: there were some conversion scripts awhile back
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[[BR]]23:33 <@nadim> paveljanik: those still valid ?  I thought munzir of late noted a problem with them or something although anmar in the past said they were useable
[[BR]]23:34 <@kuru> paveljanik: why isn't OOo using the PO format to begin with?
[[BR]]23:34 < olimar_> well as member of Arabeyes I know about it ;) but for eg. one of the positive things of having pos in the source :
[[BR]]23:34 < paveljanik> nadim: yes - there are several methods how to translate so called GSI file - have a look at e.g. ftp://ftp.linux.cz/pub/localization/OpenOffice.org/devel/GSI/cws_srx645_ooo113fix2/ for examples of it.
[[BR]]23:34 < olimar_> is for eg. I can directly test from cvs my work
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[[BR]]23:34 <@yuyu> ah, cool
[[BR]]23:34 <@yuyu> otaylor, welcome
[[BR]]23:34 < olimar_> I can change instantly anything which can be wrong without waiting for the next release
[[BR]]23:34 <@nadim> paveljanik: which is the best ?
[[BR]]23:34 < olimar_> etc..
[[BR]]23:34 <@nadim> otaylor: welcome
[[BR]]23:34  * otaylor really needs to get better at UTC time conversion...
[[BR]]23:34 < abdo> otaylor: your up :)
[[BR]]23:35 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+v otaylor] by nadim
[[BR]]23:35 < olimar_> it has many good points when the pos are directly in the source tarball
[[BR]]23:35 <@yuyu> *** Ding Ding ***
[[BR]]23:35 <@kuru> otaylor: do what I do -- only use UTC on your machine
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[[BR]]23:35 <@nadim> ok, we're going into Mr. Taylor's time
[[BR]]23:35 <@kuru> ;)
[[BR]]23:35 <@yuyu> 19:30 - 20:00    Owen Taylor            (Pango)
[[BR]]23:35 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+m] by nadim
[[BR]]23:36 <@kuru> otaylor: The floor is yours.
[[BR]]23:36 <+otaylor> OK, I don't have a prepared presentation here. Basically I'd just like to take questions that people have about where Pango/GTK+ are going for Arabic output and input
[[BR]]23:36 <+otaylor> I guess I can quickly list the topics that I know that need work
[[BR]]23:37 <@nadim> please do
[[BR]]23:37 <@yuyu> otaylor, you can do a one-line presenttion about yourself and what you're doing in pango 
[[BR]]23:37 <@yuyu> :-)
[[BR]]23:37 [Users #arabeyes]
[[BR]]23:37 [@ChanServ      ] [ CodeWarrior  ] [ menil        ] [ tarzeau      ] 
[[BR]]23:37 [@kuru          ] [ cooling      ] [ mind21_98    ] [ USER_        ] 
[[BR]]23:37 [@nadim         ] [ cuco         ] [ munzir       ] [ vorlon       ] 
[[BR]]23:37 [@sursur        ] [ erAck        ] [ Nabil_IraqLUG] [ wolfAlpha[LB]] 
[[BR]]23:37 [@yuyu          ] [ gloonie      ] [ NewComer     ] [ XSnack       ] 
[[BR]]23:37 [+otaylor       ] [ hakim_IraqLUG] [ olimar       ] [ yebyen       ] 
[[BR]]23:37 [ abdo          ] [ isam         ] [ olimar_      ] [ Zaki         ] 
[[BR]]23:37 [ alaa          ] [ Jad[away]    ] [ paveljanik   ] [ {DJ}[LB]     ] 
[[BR]]23:37 [ amaoui        ] [ kuruLogger   ] [ roblimo      ] 
[[BR]]23:37 [ BamBOOMBoY[LB]] [ Mahdi_IraqLUG] [ sebfrance3   ] 
[[BR]]23:37 [ carlos        ] [ mako-sama    ] [ srtxg        ] 
[[BR]]23:37 -!- Irssi: #arabeyes: Total of 41 nicks [5 ops, 0 halfops, 1 voices, 35 normal]
[[BR]]23:37 <+otaylor> OK, to introduce myself quickly - I designed and maintain Pango, and I've been involved in GTK+ for a very long time in various roles.
[[BR]]23:38 <+otaylor> For Pango:
[[BR]]23:38 <+otaylor>  - I think we are doing a pretty good job at shaping Arabic now. Main remaining issue is mark positioning for fonts that don't have GPOS tables which is less than ideal.
[[BR]]23:39 <+otaylor>  - Justification needs doing - Pango doesn't even have "add space" justification, but Kashida justification is clearly more of a challenge
[[BR]]23:39 <+otaylor>  - There are also some more minor things ... I recently added ellipsization (replacing text with "..." to Pango) but currently it doesn't take Arabic joining into account at all
[[BR]]23:40 <+otaylor> For GTK+:
[[BR]]23:40 <+otaylor>  - Making the jumping (not split) cursor code work properly
[[BR]]23:40 <+otaylor>   Part of that is having clicking into text change the keyboard direction
[[BR]]23:41 <+otaylor>  - Auto-bidi direction ... the current behavior where the keyboard direction overrides the current paragraph seems to be disliked
[[BR]]23:41 <+otaylor>  - BEing able to make formatting characters (RLM, etc) visible for editing.
[[BR]]23:42 <+otaylor> If we fixed all that stuff, I think GTK+ would be a pretty rocking toolkit for displaying and editing Arabic
[[BR]]23:42 -!- olimar [~olimar@p213.54.89.75.tisdip.tiscali.de] has quit [Connection timed out]
[[BR]]23:43 <+otaylor> In general, for editing changes, what I'd relaly like see done is to get a specification written for how it is supposed to work and put on freedesktop.org and then implement that for GTK+. Rather than just making ad-hoc changes to GTK+.
[[BR]]23:43 <+otaylor> Volunteers would be useful for virtually all of this work :-)
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[[BR]]23:44 <+otaylor> Questions on any of the above?
[[BR]]23:44 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-m] by nadim
[[BR]]23:44 < munzir> otaylor: Do you know we can't even move our cursor in gedit properly http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=148732
[[BR]]23:44 <@kuru> otaylor: 1. Info on fonts requirements and how to deal with them would be ideal for us when creating fonts (this information seems to be missing or hard to find), 2. What is Kashida?, 3. isn't formatting characters' visibility something application specific and anyone can do in their respective app?
[[BR]]23:44 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-m] by yuyu
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[[BR]]23:45 <+otaylor> munzir: Are you using the jumping cursor support?
[[BR]]23:46 < munzir> otalyor: I don't even know wha't this but if you typed two lines of text and move back you won't go through all of them
[[BR]]23:46 <+otaylor> kuru: 1. Follow the Microsoft Arabic OpenType guidelines. 2. Kashida is tatweel. Does that help? 3. If apps are writing custom display widget,s yes. But most apps just use GtkEntry, GtkTextView
[[BR]]23:46 < olimar_> owen for president
[[BR]]23:46 < olimar_> I love you man
[[BR]]23:46 <@nadim> otaylor: with regard to editing and needing a sepc for it - shacher (of wine shame) and I were just talking about this and we both agreed that we need a proper doc to be put together to address this issue - would you be the right person to talk to for us to continue with this (ie. you want to be included on any discussions we'll have ?)
[[BR]]23:46 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-v otaylor] by nadim
[[BR]]23:46 < otaylor> olimar_: You clearly haven't tried to get me to look at a patch
[[BR]]23:47 < olimar_> for what ?
[[BR]]23:47 <@kuru> nadim: are you talking about the same document BIG or something else?
[[BR]]23:47 <@nadim> something else
[[BR]]23:47  * kuru reads up
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[[BR]]23:48 <@kuru> way up -- maybe tomorrow ;)
[[BR]]23:48 < olimar_> well I didn't hear about it if I did I'm sure I would have filed a bug report or send you a mail
[[BR]]23:48 <@nadim> kuru: I'm talking about using vim for instance in putty or mlterm or wine where you need to move the cursor and the terminal gets all those nasty control characters - it needs to "properly" deal with them and the need a specification to spill all this stuff out
[[BR]]23:48 <@yuyu> kuruthis one seems to be a little diff. from that BIG one
[[BR]]23:48 <@nadim> kuru: gnometerminal and xterm folk note that they won't add "proper" arabic support without such a doc since they don't know what to in various scanrios
[[BR]]23:49 < otaylor> nadim: Behdad Esfahbod and Dov Grobgeld were discussing writing such a spec. Nothing much has come of it, but talk to Bedhad, say. I'm really very much the wrong person to involve.
[[BR]]23:49 < otaylor> (behdad@cs.toronto.edu)
[[BR]]23:49 <@nadim> otaylor: noted
[[BR]]23:49 <@nadim> yeah, behdad is an old friend
[[BR]]23:49 < cuco> otaylor, i use xchat alot and i get many times arabic without shaping. the fonts are found, and used, however the text is not shaped. people tell me to change the font for display, however i always though that this is not needed because of fontconfig. can you comment on this?
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[[BR]]23:50 < AnAnt_> as-salamu alaykom 
[[BR]]23:50 < olimar_> owen I behdad filed abug about a memory leak in pango
[[BR]]23:50 < olimar_> which made me think about other possible memory leaks
[[BR]]23:50 <@nadim> AnAnt_: salam
[[BR]]23:50 < munzir> otalyor: what about unicode implementation of using a dotted circle in case of multiple harakats. I can't see this implemented by GTK+
[[BR]]23:50 < otaylor> munzir: Do you have 'testtext' on your system? A test program built with GTK+. The Red Hat/Fedora packages install it.
[[BR]]23:50 < olimar_> do ou think that the implementation of all this code needs some revision to make working with Arabic not a disaster for the user?
[[BR]]23:51 < otaylor> munzir: If so, can you test your bug there? If you can reproduce it with that, it would be good to reassign from gedit to gtk+
[[BR]]23:51 < AnAnt_> nadim: u did the ireminder.pl ?
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[[BR]]23:51 < otaylor> olimar_: I'm pretty sure I fixed that one. I'm not aware of others...
[[BR]]23:51 < munzir> otaylor: I don't have it with my Mandrake 10 installation but can you poin to a link?
[[BR]]23:51 <@nadim> AnAnt_: I did - /msg me unless you are talking about Pango and otaylor's presentation
[[BR]]23:51 < olimar> how can I test if there are any memory leeks?
[[BR]]23:51 <@kuru> AnAnt_: let's try to stick to the topic until we move on to "free form"/break time.
[[BR]]23:51 < olimar> are there testing apps or methods?
[[BR]]23:52 < otaylor> cuco: Font selection is a hard area. I probably should have listed it above.
[[BR]]23:52 < AnAnt_> oh sorry I dunno about that
[[BR]]23:52 < cuco> munzir, "urpmq testtext"
[[BR]]23:52 < otaylor> cuco: The basic problem is that fontconfig picks fonts based only on whether they have the right characters, not whether they have the necesarry shaping tables
[[BR]]23:52  * kuru wonders if there is a debian package for that
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[[BR]]23:53 <@kuru> nope.
[[BR]]23:53 < munzir> otaylor: there is a file called testtext with yudit package but I don't think you mean this
[[BR]]23:53 <@kuru> otaylor: testtext comes with the source though, right?
[[BR]]23:53 < otaylor> olimar: I think valgrind is probably the easiest app to use. My 'memprof' program is nicer when it works, but it usually doesn't these days.
[[BR]]23:53 < otaylor> kuru: Yes.
[[BR]]23:53 < olimar> ic
[[BR]]23:53 < cuco> i dont think i have a font that has bad shaping tables. this is the problem.
[[BR]]23:53 < otaylor> munzir: Actually, gtk-demo - you can use that too
[[BR]]23:53 < otaylor> munzr: You shoud have that.
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[[BR]]23:54 < olimar> and sometimes in the future cairo will be used for printing drawing etc... will it replace pango? Or something like that? Or will the shaping code get separate into fd.org?
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[[BR]]23:54 < olimar> especially for printing Arabic text will cairo handle this?
[[BR]]23:54 < otaylor> cuco: So basically to get things working right you need to do two things. A) Make fontconfig report what tables a font has  B)Add some logic to Pango to only select fonts with the right GSUB talbes for Arabic
[[BR]]23:55 <@nadim> olimar: what's "cairo" ?
[[BR]]23:55 < otaylor> olimar: Cairo doens't replace Pango, instead they'll work together to provide text rendering
[[BR]]23:55 <@kuru> otaylor/olimar: url to cairo ?
[[BR]]23:55 < olimar> Cairo is the new drawing library for rendering and drawing text/pics etc...
[[BR]]23:55 < olimar> fd.org
[[BR]]23:55 < olimar> cairo
[[BR]]23:56 < olimar> well I mean freedesktop.org
[[BR]]23:56 < otaylor> Oh, that's something people might be interested - I recently made gnome-print work better with Pango - so programs like gedit now print Arabic correctly
[[BR]]23:56 < olimar> WOW
[[BR]]23:56 <@nadim> olimar: part of which toolkit ?
[[BR]]23:56 < olimar> yeah you rule
[[BR]]23:56 < munzir> otaylor: i have gtk-demo from libgtk+2.0_0-devel but don't know how to test on it :(
[[BR]]23:56 < olimar> nadim it isn't part of any toolkit
[[BR]]23:56 < otaylor> (Unfortunately not evolution, since that doesn't use the bidi parts of Pango just the low level shaping)
[[BR]]23:56 < otaylor> kuru: cairographics.org
[[BR]]23:56 < olimar> it will replace libart in gnome
[[BR]]23:56 <@kuru> otaylor: thanks.
[[BR]]23:57 < olimar> but libart itself is not a gnome speciefic drawing library
[[BR]]23:57 < abdo> olimar: get ready :)
[[BR]]23:57 < olimar> it will maybe replace gdk-pixbuf in gtk
[[BR]]23:57 <@nadim> I wonder what happens if CUPS also has arabic support enabled....
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[[BR]]23:57 < olimar> owen ?
[[BR]]23:57 < otaylor> munzir: Can you msg me afterwards; don't want to take up time here
[[BR]]23:58 < olimar> abdo, *~*
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[[BR]]23:58 <@nadim> otaylor: thank owen for coming and presenting - we realize you are super busy, but we can't fathom having one of these without you being here :-)  so thanks a million for all your hard work and all your efforts !!!!
[[BR]]23:58 <@nadim> olimar (ie. Arafat Medini) will present next in about 3 minutes
[[BR]]23:58 < otaylor> olimar: It's a little differnet htan gdk-pixbuf. Both can do client-side image buffers, but gdk-pixbuf is essentially a image loading library, cairo a drawing library
[[BR]]23:58 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+v olimar] by yuyu
[[BR]]23:59 <+olimar> Ah 
[[BR]]23:59 <@kuru> hold your horses
[[BR]]23:59 <+olimar> ok I understand
[[BR]]23:59 <@kuru> you got one more minute ;)
[[BR]]23:59 < otaylor> One URL - http://people.redhat.com/otaylor/guadec5/
[[BR]]23:59 < HasIraqiLUG> hello every1
[[BR]]23:59 < otaylor> If you want to know about Cairo/Pango/Printing etc, that paper and slides has quite a bit of infomraiton
[[BR]]23:59 < IraqLUG_Nabil> hi has
[[BR]]23:59 <@yuyu> HasIraqiLUG, salam
[[BR]]23:59 < otaylor> Thanks a lot for inviting me
[[BR]]23:59 <+olimar> I hope cairo wil abstract Arabic support as much as possible 
[[BR]]23:59 <+olimar> so that it is no more gnome or gtk specific
[[BR]]00:00 < otaylor> I usually can be found on irc.gnome.org:#gtk+
[[BR]]00:00 <@kuru> ** DING DING DING **
[[BR]]00:00 <@yuyu> otaylor, thanks for coming !
[[BR]]00:00 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+m] by kuru
[[BR]]00:00 <+olimar> reinds me of Boxing
[[BR]]00:00 <+olimar> reminds
[[BR]]00:00 <@kuru> olimar, the floor is yours
[[BR]]00:00 <+olimar> Ok first Salam to al
[[BR]]00:00 <+olimar> my Name is Arafat Medini and I am the gnome translation coordinator in the Arabeyes group
[[BR]]00:01 <+olimar> I wanted to take this speach spekaing in the name  of all the translators in Arabeyes
[[BR]]00:01 <+olimar> our goals
[[BR]]00:01 <+olimar> We try to translate the whole gnome desktop to arabic 
[[BR]]00:02 <+olimar> this means that we take the existing pos in the gnoem cvs tree and work on them and release them with every new release
[[BR]]00:02 <+olimar> gnome
[[BR]]00:02 <+olimar> we try to achieve 100% support for gnome translation
[[BR]]00:02 <+olimar> so that :
[[BR]]00:02 <+olimar> Arabic is a supported language 
[[BR]]00:03 <+olimar> and thus Arabic gets into the main distros
[[BR]]00:03 <+olimar> And internally we work on wuality control and on planning work on the whole translation process
[[BR]]00:03 <+olimar> which file has to be worked on and which not etc...
[[BR]]00:03 <+olimar> mainly we work on the gnome Desktop which is a bungh of files which consist the core dekstop
[[BR]]00:04 <+olimar> that is our primary goal
[[BR]]00:04 <+olimar> and then the whole other apps of the gnome world
[[BR]]00:04 <+olimar> I say we cz we were two ppl
[[BR]]00:04 <+olimar> me and Abdulaziz Alarfaj and now we have a newcomer 
[[BR]]00:04 <+olimar> Ayman
[[BR]]00:05 <+olimar> the Arabeyes project with it's existing framework is crucial for our work
[[BR]]00:05 <+olimar> for many reasons:
[[BR]]00:05 <+olimar> you can maintain through work with other a high quality level
[[BR]]00:05 -!- CVirus [~cvirus@62.135.96.131] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]00:05 <+olimar> you get a server were to stro and so secure your work
[[BR]]00:05 <+olimar> store
[[BR]]00:05 <+olimar> you have an ecosystem where you exchange idea
[[BR]]00:06 <+olimar> and your work benefits other projects as well
[[BR]]00:06 <+olimar> last but least I want to say that for 2.6 we indeed achieve 100% support for Arabic in gnome
[[BR]]00:06 <+olimar> and that with our work a project like Arabbix became reality
[[BR]]00:07 <+olimar> future ;
[[BR]]00:07 <+olimar> :
[[BR]]00:07 <+olimar> generally speaking the whole work is going now very smoothly
[[BR]]00:07 <+olimar> so what we want is Quality
[[BR]]00:07 <+olimar> and for this our main focus now is on QAC
[[BR]]00:08 <+olimar> QAC stands for Quality Assurance Commitee
[[BR]]00:08 <+olimar> we will try to unify the translation process by setting up a quality framework for testing, improving and cleaning app exsiting translations
[[BR]]00:08 <+olimar> this is now very important cz the Q is no more were are we at gnome? for eg.
[[BR]]00:09 <+olimar> the Q is, what can we deliver to the Arabic user?
[[BR]]00:09 <+olimar> and the answer has to be : A really consistent, clean and self-explanatory Dekstop
[[BR]]00:09 <+olimar> Dekstop
[[BR]]00:10 <+olimar> and that's QACs task, all of us will work under its umbrella to unsure that we get the maximum of quality, consistency and happiness ;) out of it 
[[BR]]00:10 <+olimar> for the User
[[BR]]00:10 <+olimar> I as the coordinator of the QAC only play a minor role in this and that's the spirit, all of us will work to wards getting the experience to the next level
[[BR]]00:10 <+olimar> that's generally my work at Arabeyes ;)
[[BR]]00:11 <+olimar> END!
[[BR]]00:11 <@yuyu> thanks mister olimar 
[[BR]]00:11 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-m] by yuyu
[[BR]]00:11 <+olimar> so I hope you some Qs
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[[BR]]00:11 <+olimar> have
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[[BR]]00:12 <@yuyu> olimar, what about the other gnome apps ?
[[BR]]00:12 < abdo> I've got a couple, but I'll let others go first
[[BR]]00:12 <@yuyu> olimar, any plan for those ?
[[BR]]00:12 < CVirus> mr. olimar, r u typing everything from scratch or u prepared it early ?
[[BR]]00:12 <@kuru> olimar/abdo -- ayman's account has been created btw.
[[BR]]00:12 < hakim_IraqLUG> Q: will the same work map to the Gnome desktops on Solaris
[[BR]]00:12 <@nadim> kuru: heheh - thanks
[[BR]]00:12 < hakim_IraqLUG> or just Linux
[[BR]]00:12 < abdo> kuru: thank you. we'll inform him soon.
[[BR]]00:12 < olimar> I am typing everything from scratch
[[BR]]00:12 <@nadim> hakim_IraqLUG: it should have no baring on the platform
[[BR]]00:13 < CVirus> olimar, good typer ;)
[[BR]]00:13 < hakim_IraqLUG> ok
[[BR]]00:13 < CVirus> brb .. change my nick
[[BR]]00:13 < olimar> yuyu the other gnome apps are worked on, 
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[[BR]]00:13 < olimar> ago our focus was only the core
[[BR]]00:13 <@nadim> olimar: can you tell us about QAC's status ?
[[BR]]00:13 <@yuyu> olimar, any rodmap ?
[[BR]]00:13 < olimar> but now it is the whole gnome desktop and Quality
[[BR]]00:13  * mind21_98 looks in
[[BR]]00:13 < mind21_98> Woah, party.
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[[BR]]00:13 < CVirus_EgLUG> back
[[BR]]00:13 < HasIraqiLUG> I would like to offer you guys the following
[[BR]]00:14 < HasIraqiLUG> I'm an administrator in A hosting company
[[BR]]00:14 < olimar> yuyu, yes there is a roadmap which consists of working on very important apps like glade, gimp etc... then focus on gnome 2.8 for release and then return to other less important apps
[[BR]]00:14 < HasIraqiLUG> and I would be happy to give u free web space
[[BR]]00:14 <@yuyu> olimar, ok
[[BR]]00:15 < olimar> Nadim, QAC will start hopefully in the coming week as everything is set up and the way of working is ready
[[BR]]00:15 < olimar> it is a very ambicious project and I hope we will succeed in it
[[BR]]00:15 < gloonie> bye all - thanks for the chat! Boss is coming, so must run!
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[[BR]]00:15 < olimar> thanx CVirus ;)
[[BR]]00:16 <@yuyu> olimar, when do you think gnome will be fully translated (ie all the apps). one year, 2 years ?
[[BR]]00:16 <@nadim> olimar: with regard to roadmap - is there a doc/site that notes your work and your internal deadlines ?
[[BR]]00:17 <@nadim> olimar: for the upcoming few revisions
[[BR]]00:17 < olimar> one and a half year, but I want to concentrate now more on QAC to get the whole on a solid base
[[BR]]00:17 <@nadim> olimar: I ask this in order to know what to tell newbies looking to help out and needing to know what is the current status (the status bars note that is) and what is to be done and when
[[BR]]00:18 < olimar> normally I use the mailing lists to publish all my idea regarding gnomes and QAC development
[[BR]]00:18 < olimar> ic, but I am thinking lately on using the Arabeyes WIKI for this
[[BR]]00:18 <@kuru> olimar: that's where the wiki system could be useful ;) 
[[BR]]00:18 < olimar> the WIKI is a very good way to publish and manage idea and papers
[[BR]]00:18 < olimar> yes kuru I think so too
[[BR]]00:19 <@nadim> olimar: what can Arabeyes as a project do to help you in any way (aside from your planet ranting :-)
[[BR]]00:19 < olimar> haha
[[BR]]00:19 <@nadim> I thought you were going to mention that in your intro - but you surprised me :-)
[[BR]]00:19 < abdo> olimar: I have a couple of Q's, first of all, what would you say are the things that mostly would attract a user to use the Arabic UI instead of the English UI, and what are the things that would mostly him drive him/her away from the Arabic UI?
[[BR]]00:20 < olimar> Oh well totally forgot aobut it ;) the planet is something for fun but nothing more I think
[[BR]]00:20 < olimar> for every interested : http://planet.arabeyes.org ;P
[[BR]]00:20 < AnAnt_> i tried to use arabic interface of gnome one, but font was so big & bulky , so I went back to english
[[BR]]00:20 <@kuru> olimar: OT: my favorite is the 'indian food' entry.. I laughed for 2 minutes non-stop ;)
[[BR]]00:20 < olimar> I think a normal user, wants to read and write as he speeks, I think english is - for the majority of ppl- difficult and not natural
[[BR]]00:21 < olimar> HAHA
[[BR]]00:21 < olimar> @kuru ;)
[[BR]]00:21 <@kuru> AnAnt_: could be your font size
[[BR]]00:21 < AnAnt_> kuru: ic, th
[[BR]]00:21 < AnAnt_> th=thx
[[BR]]00:21 < olimar> I think when the mainstream will use linux he will prefer to use it in ARabic
[[BR]]00:21 < olimar> an Arabic interface is natural
[[BR]]00:21 <@yuyu> olimar, that's why i was speaking about local arabic previously, though I won't defend the idea.
[[BR]]00:21 <@nadim> olimar: do you use kbabel or gtranslator for you work or emacs or .... ??
[[BR]]00:21 < olimar> ic
[[BR]]00:21 <@kuru> olimar: any reason why Arabic for 2.6 is at 99.xx and not 100% like Azerbijan?
[[BR]]00:22  * kuru grins
[[BR]]00:22 <@yuyu> hehe
[[BR]]00:22 < olimar> gtranslator but only cz I don't have enough space on my HD to install KDE libs ;)
[[BR]]00:22 <@yuyu> kurujapan trip :)
[[BR]]00:22  * erAck is leaving and heading home now
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[[BR]]00:22 <@nadim> olimar: why cuz ?  is gtransltor lacking in any regard compared to babel ?
[[BR]]00:22 < olimar> kuru, yes with 2.6.2 there were some string changes and so normally the perdentage drops
[[BR]]00:23 < olimar> nadim, yes it is gtranslator has bad formatting bugs which destroy your file when changing its encoding
[[BR]]00:23 < olimar> the file becomes unusable
[[BR]]00:23 <@nadim> olimar: do the gtranslator people know about this ?
[[BR]]00:23 <@nadim> olimar: have bug reports been filled ?
[[BR]]00:24 < olimar> yes they do but they are not actively working on gtranslator now that's why the bug was not patched
[[BR]]00:24 <@nadim> olimar: how many hours do you spend a week on all of this ?
[[BR]]00:24 < olimar> well it varies, now cz I am very busy I am only coordinating
[[BR]]00:24 < olimar> but for 2.6 for eg.
[[BR]]00:24 < olimar> some days I was translating 22 hours a day
[[BR]]00:25 < olimar> so I slept some 2 to 3 hours and the whole day was translating
[[BR]]00:25 < abdo> olimar: thats cruelty to yourself :)
[[BR]]00:25 <@nadim> btw in passing - all of arabeyes' mailing-lists including "doc" which the translators use are available here - https://www.arabeyes.org/Mailing_Lists  - its key for all those interested in helping/joining to look into the lists and subscribe !!
[[BR]]00:25 < olimar> ;) Well but as said I got 2.6 with 100% out
[[BR]]00:25 < olimar> yes nadim
[[BR]]00:25 < olimar> the mailing lists are for more the most imporant way of cmmunication
[[BR]]00:26 < olimar> soall of use the doc list
[[BR]]00:26 <@nadim> olimar: you are one of those ant workers that doesn't get enough credit :-)
[[BR]]00:26 < olimar> for all of the translators we meet there discuss idea, plans, words virtually everything
[[BR]]00:26 < olimar> doc@arabeyes.org
[[BR]]00:27 <@nadim> olimar: thanks a million for your hard work, your attitude and commitment - and thanks for your presentation.
[[BR]]00:27 < olimar> you can subscribe at : http://lists.arabeyes.org/mailman/listinfo/doc
[[BR]]00:27 < olimar> thanx Nadim!
[[BR]]00:27 <@nadim> we have the Iraqi LUG in 4 minutes - so olimar do please wrap-up
[[BR]]00:27 < olimar> so please if you want to ease me and make me work less then 22 hours a day subscribe to the list ;)
[[BR]]00:28 < olimar> I wnat to thank Abdulaziz Alarfaj aka abdo for his work
[[BR]]00:28 <@nadim> olimar: I do too :-)
[[BR]]00:28 < olimar> especially for the next development of gnome his work and Aymans work will be a real must
[[BR]]00:28 <@nadim> AND osax :-)
[[BR]]00:28 <@yuyu> olimar, thank you for the presentation :-)
[[BR]]00:28 < olimar> to reach the next level
[[BR]]00:28 < abdo> olimar: not at all, I love the work
[[BR]]00:28 < olimar> my goals are support for every major app in gnome
[[BR]]00:29 < olimar> the BEST arabic DE out there and happy users 
[[BR]]00:29 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+v hakim_IraqLUG] by yuyu
[[BR]]00:29 <@kuru> ** 1 minute to go **
[[BR]]00:29 < olimar> thanx again!
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[[BR]]00:30 <@yuyu> hakim_IraqLUG, will you do the presentation alone or do whould we give voice to other LUG members ?
[[BR]]00:30 <@kuru> ** DING DING DING **
[[BR]]00:30 <@yuyu> 20:30 - 21:00    Hakim George           (Iraq LUG)
[[BR]]00:30 <@kuru> ***  20:30 - 21:00    Hakim George           (Iraq LUG) ***
[[BR]]00:30 <+hakim_IraqLUG> salam all
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[[BR]]00:31 <+hakim_IraqLUG> My name is Hakim George
[[BR]]00:31 <+hakim_IraqLUG> and I will be discussing the Iraqi Linux Group
[[BR]]00:32 <+hakim_IraqLUG> I have not prepared a presentation but I will try to outline
[[BR]]00:32 <+hakim_IraqLUG> quickly our history and our plans
[[BR]]00:32 <+hakim_IraqLUG>  
[[BR]]00:33 <+hakim_IraqLUG> Many in our group had the idea of an ILUG few years ago but did not have the chance to do something about it
[[BR]]00:34 <+hakim_IraqLUG> specially as some are based in Iraq and find it difficult to communicate
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[[BR]]00:34 <+hakim_IraqLUG> it all came ahead last year after the liberation when we kind of decided at the same time
[[BR]]00:35 <+hakim_IraqLUG> to establish a linux group for Iraq
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[[BR]]00:35 <+hakim_IraqLUG> that was done around october and efforts of many teams members were combined 
[[BR]]00:36 <+hakim_IraqLUG> to procure web space and facilities
[[BR]]00:36 <+hakim_IraqLUG>  
[[BR]]00:36 -!- mhlmi [~mhlmi@62.139.71.75] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]00:36 <+hakim_IraqLUG> we are currently less than 10 people active where 3 are inside Iraq
[[BR]]00:37 <+hakim_IraqLUG> and our responsibility is to effectively explode (no pun intended) linux in Iraq
[[BR]]00:37 <+hakim_IraqLUG> for many reasons
[[BR]]00:38 <+hakim_IraqLUG> economic: as all are aware the problems after the decimation of Iraqi economy
[[BR]]00:38 <+hakim_IraqLUG> through war after war
[[BR]]00:39 <+hakim_IraqLUG> technical: and that was mainly due the the severest sanctions ever imposed on a country in history
[[BR]]00:40 <+hakim_IraqLUG> educational: etc
[[BR]]00:40 <+hakim_IraqLUG> all these are in state of collapse
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[[BR]]00:40 <+hakim_IraqLUG> and I dont need to point to them all you have to do is just see the media every day
[[BR]]00:41 <+hakim_IraqLUG>  
[[BR]]00:41 <+hakim_IraqLUG> we believe that with Linux we can bootstrap the country from many aspects
[[BR]]00:41 <+hakim_IraqLUG> and with minimum cost
[[BR]]00:42 <+hakim_IraqLUG> without worry about intellectual property
[[BR]]00:42 <+hakim_IraqLUG>  
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[[BR]]00:42 <+hakim_IraqLUG> so the guys in Baghdad started to approach educational establishments and organisations to introduce them to Linux
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[[BR]]00:43 <+hakim_IraqLUG> and we outside provide the support from the point of view, materials, web management etc
[[BR]]00:43 <+hakim_IraqLUG>  
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[[BR]]00:44 <+hakim_IraqLUG> we also started to look at projects that will assist in this
[[BR]]00:45 <+hakim_IraqLUG> and one of the projects we are considering is to create a Linux Comouter Driving Licence type
[[BR]]00:45 <+hakim_IraqLUG> of training program
[[BR]]00:45 <+hakim_IraqLUG> similar to this http://www.icdl-unesco.org/Arabic%203.0%20Syllabus.pdf
[[BR]]00:46 <+hakim_IraqLUG> using Linux, Open Office, MySQL, etc
[[BR]]00:46 <+hakim_IraqLUG>  
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[[BR]]00:47 <+hakim_IraqLUG> the above depens on the degree of arabisation in Linux and the required tools
[[BR]]00:48 <+hakim_IraqLUG> we are looking at other projects also at differnt priorities
[[BR]]00:48 <+hakim_IraqLUG>  
[[BR]]00:49 <+hakim_IraqLUG> But our main problem now is the insecurity
[[BR]]00:49 <+hakim_IraqLUG> we cant hold workshops or installation workshops because people are afraid to communicate
[[BR]]00:49 <+hakim_IraqLUG> yet alone carry a pc outside the office o house
[[BR]]00:50 <+hakim_IraqLUG> but slowly we are getting there
[[BR]]00:50 <+hakim_IraqLUG>  
[[BR]]00:50 <+hakim_IraqLUG> I have alot to say but I see time is short, so I will stop now
[[BR]]00:51 <+hakim_IraqLUG> and will open one day discussion for the subject
[[BR]]00:51 <@kuru> hakim_IraqLUG: Thank you for your detailed presentation.
[[BR]]00:51 <@nadim> time for Q&A ?
[[BR]]00:51 <+hakim_IraqLUG> now any Questions
[[BR]]00:51 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-m] by kuru
[[BR]]00:51 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-v hakim_IraqLUG] by yuyu
[[BR]]00:51 < abdo> I have a question. I'll save it for last
[[BR]]00:51 < hakim_IraqLUG> ok abdo
[[BR]]00:51 <@yuyu> hakim_IraqLUG, are the 3 lugs member located exclisively in bagdad ?
[[BR]]00:52 <@kuru> hakim_IraqLUG: what can we as the Arab community do to help?
[[BR]]00:52 <@nadim> hakim_IraqLUG: thank you for the intro - without getting into politics, do you think linux has a real chance in Iraq given the mentality in the rest of the world which now simply looks at Iraq as a country looking to import everything with everyone looking to make a dollar/euro - ie. is there a real chance for linux to beat out M$ ?
[[BR]]00:52 < hakim_IraqLUG> if time is not enough you can join later to #iraqilinux same server
[[BR]]00:52 -!- mako[dinner] is now known as mako-sama
[[BR]]00:52 <@nadim> we have a break - so you have roughly 40 minutes :-)
[[BR]]00:52 < hakim_IraqLUG> nadim: one of the imports is IBM and IBM is championing Linux
[[BR]]00:52 <@yuyu> s/exclisively/exclusively
[[BR]]00:53 <@nadim> hakim_IraqLUG: has IBM noted that publicly with regard to Iraq ?
[[BR]]00:53 < hakim_IraqLUG> no Linux will not beat Windows
[[BR]]00:53 <@kuru> hakim_IraqLUG: also, what have you done to promote the lug locally (to get on the ground members)
[[BR]]00:53 < olimar> are there enough computers to install Linux on ?
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[[BR]]00:54 < hakim_IraqLUG> the guys in Iraq are working hard promoting it, giving free disks, assisting in setup
[[BR]]00:54 < hakim_IraqLUG> etc but more needs to be done
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[[BR]]00:55 < hakim_IraqLUG> the hinderance is the current security situation
[[BR]]00:55 <@nadim> hakim_IraqLUG: that really wasn't my intent - who will beat whom :-)  I was trying to think aloud what can be done (and how can we help) to give linux a real chance, as I think it will see hostile conditions there given money is such a priority
[[BR]]00:55 <@kuru> hakim_IraqLUG: have you had any attempts of initiating contact with academic instutions to promote local memberships?
[[BR]]00:56 < hakim_IraqLUG> yes there were few successes but the main problem is the resistance not from Linux
[[BR]]00:56 <@nadim> hakim_IraqLUG: btw - you might want to mention the break-down of the LUG (location, number of members, etc)
[[BR]]00:56 < abdo> hakim_IraqLUG: can you please confirm something I've read in the newspapers, that due to fierce lobbying by M$, Linux is being completely locked out of being installed on government and public computers, while copies of Windows are being imported at $150 a pop?
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[[BR]]00:56 < olimar> Hakim but really what I kept thinking about, do you have many PCs in Iraq?
[[BR]]00:56 <@nadim> abdo: that's what I was getting at without going into detail :-)
[[BR]]00:57 < hakim_IraqLUG> and currently there are three guys in the whole of Iraq 
[[BR]]00:57 < olimar> I mean you had the embargo etc... do you have this technology?
[[BR]]00:57 <@nadim> abdo: and what can we do to change it or affect it in anyway :-)
[[BR]]00:57 < abdo> nadim: I thought it would be no use beating around the bush ;)
[[BR]]00:57 < hakim_IraqLUG> there is a large number of PCs
[[BR]]00:57 < vorlon> MS seems to be very interested in creating the "perfect" IP regime in Iraq. :/
[[BR]]00:57 < IraqLUG_Nabil> and all up-to-date I may add
[[BR]]00:57 < olimar> wow
[[BR]]00:57 < hakim_IraqLUG> so hardware and even expertise is not an issue
[[BR]]00:58 < IraqLUG_Nabil> ppl there talk in P4 and and Intel HT ,, 
[[BR]]00:58 < IraqLUG_Nabil> no P3 or older technologies
[[BR]]00:58 <@nadim> hakim_IraqLUG: those 3 guys are the 'net connected - do they have daily access - are they abreast of changes, etc ?
[[BR]]00:58 < mako-sama> my brother went to iraq once a year in the past 3 years.. according to he said, PCs are availble there more than clean water
[[BR]]00:58 < hakim_IraqLUG> yes they are
[[BR]]00:58 < mako-sama> and they're.. cheap too
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[[BR]]00:58 < hakim_IraqLUG> and we have daily access
[[BR]]00:58 < IraqLUG_Nabil> mako-sama, that's correct
[[BR]]00:59 < vorlon> hakim_IraqLUG: do you have contact with Skolelinux people?  Some of my Debian collaborators are also trying to work to get Linux into Iraq before MS wins the mindshare war
[[BR]]00:59 < mako-sama> ms will have success
[[BR]]00:59 < mako-sama> heh
[[BR]]00:59 < IraqLUG_Nabil> vorlon, Windows already won that 
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[[BR]]00:59 <@nadim> hakim_IraqLUG: so what are those 3 guys from Iraq asking for most (with regard to things we can help out with) ?
[[BR]]00:59 < IraqLUG_Nabil> Windows is everywhere there
[[BR]]00:59 < hakim_IraqLUG> we are not competing with MS who will win anyway
[[BR]]00:59 < mako-sama> unless there is a _big_ company lobying behind linux in iraq
[[BR]]01:00 < mako-sama> so, that'll be either IBM, Novel, or maybe redhat
[[BR]]01:00 < hakim_IraqLUG> but it is not just Linux
[[BR]]01:00 <@kuru> hakim_IraqLUG: it is just that my impression, that you have gotten very good international coverage but very little achievement in terms of the local, on the ground, members -- which is (imho) what makes up a LUG. What steps are you taking to resolve this and what can we all do to help? Is internet connectivity an issue?
[[BR]]01:00 < IraqLUG_Nabil> RedHat doesn't have the resources
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[[BR]]01:00 < mako-sama> yes
[[BR]]01:00 < hakim_IraqLUG> its all the other Open Source software
[[BR]]01:00 < mako-sama> that's why i said 'maybe redhat'
[[BR]]01:00 < mako-sama> i don't think they can do it, although they might risk it and try
[[BR]]01:00 < hakim_IraqLUG> thats where a big impact can be made 
[[BR]]01:00 < vorlon> IraqLUG_Nabil: Windows is everywhere everywhere; but in many places, people are starting to wake up to alternatives.  It seems to me we're still in a critical time in Iraq when Linux has a better chance to drive a wedge between Microsoft and the people.
[[BR]]01:01 < hakim_IraqLUG> and we have set up an NGO  ioso.org (Iraqi Open Source Organisation) 
[[BR]]01:01 <@nadim> vorlon: not when huge amounts of $ are involved
[[BR]]01:01 < hakim_IraqLUG> which is agnostic to OS
[[BR]]01:01 < mako-sama> vorlon: one thing to note.. it's not like iraq doesn't know what windows is.. we already said that PCs are available in iraq just they're in anywhere else
[[BR]]01:01 <@nadim> vorlon: and I do mean huge - in the billions
[[BR]]01:01 < mako-sama> people are used to MS stuff, that's the problem we have everywhere
[[BR]]01:02 < mako-sama> and really.. price doesn't matter
[[BR]]01:02 < IraqLUG_Nabil> vorlon, Linux has to prove itself to be good to win in Iraq
[[BR]]01:02 < IraqLUG_Nabil> basically both Windows and Linux are free there
[[BR]]01:02 <@nadim> hakim_IraqLUG: you set it up - meaning its a legal entity ?
[[BR]]01:02 < IraqLUG_Nabil> same with most of the arab world
[[BR]]01:02 < abdo> mako-sama: but right now computers are being introduced into government circles in Iraq. I think thats a first in ALL the Arab world
[[BR]]01:02 < hakim_IraqLUG> not just Linux (Arabised Linux) has to prove itself
[[BR]]01:02 < IraqLUG_Nabil> so unless ppl. beleive that Linux work for them 
[[BR]]01:02 < mako-sama> i'm sure you can't find more than one legal windows copy in 100km diameter
[[BR]]01:02 < IraqLUG_Nabil> no one will use it except hobbiest 
[[BR]]01:02 < IraqLUG_Nabil> s
[[BR]]01:02 < abdo> I cant think of a fully or even partially computerised Arabic government
[[BR]]01:02 < hakim_IraqLUG> and so far it is still far behind Windows
[[BR]]01:02 < vorlon> IraqLUG_Nabil: oh, but I think Linux *does* prove itself to be good.  But often Microsoft *pays* people to start using their products, which makes it even harder... :)
[[BR]]01:03 < IraqLUG_Nabil> to me and you
[[BR]]01:03 < IraqLUG_Nabil> the technical ppl.
[[BR]]01:03 < IraqLUG_Nabil> try convince an average joe who wants to check email, brose around and play his fav game that it;s better for him
[[BR]]01:03 <@kuru> okay, I guess having local members is not a priority.
[[BR]]01:03 < mako-sama> vorlon: Linux needs improvments in many areas.. if you were here since the event started you'd have read heard about it
[[BR]]01:03 < IraqLUG_Nabil> kuru, our local members are facing difficulties
[[BR]]01:04 < IraqLUG_Nabil> there is a huge "firewall" of burcuracy
[[BR]]01:04 <@nadim> hakim_IraqLUG: again, what do the 3 guys back in Iraq ask for most often - ie. what can we help with ? and per kuru's question - what is being done to get more LUG members there ?
[[BR]]01:04 < IraqLUG_Nabil> and closed minds
[[BR]]01:04 <@kuru> IraqLUG_Nabil: security aside, what else is the problem?
[[BR]]01:04 < vorlon> IraqLUG_Nabil: then I really think you should be in contact with Skolelinux folks, who are deploying to schools nationwide in northern Europe.
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[[BR]]01:04 < vorlon> mako-sama: oh, there's always room for improvements. :)  Make me a list...
[[BR]]01:04 < mako-sama> vorlon: read the logs :)
[[BR]]01:04 < IraqLUG_Nabil> vorlon, we are at the "raising awarnesS" phase at the moment
[[BR]]01:05 < IraqLUG_Nabil> deployment of any kind at this time is difficult. 
[[BR]]01:05 < mako-sama> vorlon: the thing is, what people need, especially arabs, isn't there in a complete form
[[BR]]01:05 < mako-sama> not yet
[[BR]]01:05 < IraqLUG_Nabil> what we are trying to do is let ppl. know thatg there is an alterantice that we beleive is better and we have to prove that 
[[BR]]01:05 <@kuru> IraqLUG_Nabil: of those 3 members, how many are in school and how many are working (fulltime)?
[[BR]]01:05 < mako-sama> improvments are coming rapidly, but it's just not there yet
[[BR]]01:05 < vorlon> IraqLUG_Nabil: IMHO, the #1 tool for raising awareness is successful deployments.
[[BR]]01:05 < IraqLUG_Nabil> so far, I know 1 working full timer
[[BR]]01:05 < IraqLUG_Nabil> one finishing up his masters
[[BR]]01:06 < hakim_IraqLUG> there is huge amount of open software out ther to cover Iraqs needs 10 times over, but sadly not arabised
[[BR]]01:06 < IraqLUG_Nabil> and one I beleive finished his BSd, not sure f he started working yet
[[BR]]01:06 <@nadim> <<NOTICE>> we are in Free Form time (ie. break) for the next 23-24 minutes
[[BR]]01:06 <@kuru> The reason I ask is that universities are the _best_ place to recruit members to a LUG
[[BR]]01:06 <@nadim> and after that Ahmad Khalifa is to follow
[[BR]]01:06 <@kuru> if you don't coordinate from there, you are likely to have a very difficult time recruiting members.
[[BR]]01:06 < IraqLUG_Nabil> last week, Ashraf fromk the Lug contacted the head of computer engineering department of Uni of Baghdad, he was very intreted inLinux and the possiblitie sit opens
[[BR]]01:07 < mako-sama> it's hard already
[[BR]]01:07 < IraqLUG_Nabil> Ashraf if following up with him on how to build up something of it to showcase
[[BR]]01:07 < mako-sama> we don't want it to get harder
[[BR]]01:07 <@nadim> hakim_IraqLUG: thank you very much for your presentation and time - we are all very eager to know how best we can all help and what tangibles we can deliver to spread the usage of linux in Iraq, so feel free to post or stop by to reraise this issue.
[[BR]]01:07 <@kuru> Having members who are geographically distributed is fine, but as a LUG, not having the majority locally in Iraq is a serious issue that hinders all your potential acitivities.
[[BR]]01:07 < hakim_IraqLUG> and I have access to government at ministerial level, but it is too soon to do things
[[BR]]01:08 < IraqLUG_Nabil> kuru, that's correct and we have connections to universities and proffesionals in there
[[BR]]01:08 < mako-sama> Microsoft PR doesn't think it's too soon
[[BR]]01:08 < mako-sama> -_-
[[BR]]01:08 < hakim_IraqLUG> thank you nadim for this opportunity and everybody for listening
[[BR]]01:08 <@kuru> hakim_IraqLUG: if there is anything that Arabeyes can do to help in this regard (or anything else), don't hesitate to ask. We are here to help.
[[BR]]01:08 < hakim_IraqLUG> thanks kuru
[[BR]]01:09 <@nadim> hakim_IraqLUG: this is not shear lip service either - we're serious
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[[BR]]01:09 <@kuru> IraqLUG_Nabil: then I hope that's where you are looking to recruit ;)
[[BR]]01:09 < hakim_IraqLUG> I know nadim, thanks
[[BR]]01:09 < mako-sama> what is happening in Iraq now is like what happend in Bahrain few years ago
[[BR]]01:09 < IraqLUG_Mahdi> Hello all
[[BR]]01:09 < mako-sama> we know that Microsoft ignored all the pirating on purpose
[[BR]]01:09 <@nadim> IraqLUG_Mahdi: salam
[[BR]]01:10 < IraqLUG_Mahdi> We are also in the process to starts the ISOC Iraq (www.isoc.org) 
[[BR]]01:10 < IraqLUG_Nabil> kuru, yes, but Universities and collecges aren't the only venue
[[BR]]01:10 < IraqLUG_Nabil> ;)
[[BR]]01:10 < hakim_IraqLUG> mako-sama, I have a different view to that
[[BR]]01:10 <@kuru> IraqLUG_Nabil: it is the most potent venue IMHO
[[BR]]01:10 < mako-sama> hakim_IraqLUG: i'm listinging :)
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[[BR]]01:10 < mako-sama> listening*
[[BR]]01:10 < IraqLUG_Nabil> it is one venue :)
[[BR]]01:11 < IraqLUG_Mahdi> Please read here my article that has created the initiative and the objectives of it. 
[[BR]]01:11 < hakim_IraqLUG> you have to break it into aspects
[[BR]]01:11 < IraqLUG_Mahdi> http://www.iraqilinux.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=26&mode=&order=0&thold=0
[[BR]]01:11 < hakim_IraqLUG> and how these aspects are associated
[[BR]]01:12 <@kuru> hakim_IraqLUG: what do you do, if you don't mind me asking?
[[BR]]01:12 < hakim_IraqLUG> do as in what?
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[[BR]]01:12 <@kuru> hakim_IraqLUG: work ;)
[[BR]]01:12 <@kuru> hakim_IraqLUG: you're not in Iraq, right?
[[BR]]01:13 < hakim_IraqLUG> no
[[BR]]01:13 < hakim_IraqLUG> ok experience http://iraqilinux.com/members/hakim_george/experience.html
[[BR]]01:13 < einpoklum> mar7aba liljami3... since this is the 'free-form' time, I'd like to butt in for a second...
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[[BR]]01:13 <@kuru> einpoklum: go for it ;)
[[BR]]01:13 < mako-sama> einpoklum: no one is stoping you ;/
[[BR]]01:13 < hakim_IraqLUG> currently global architecture for tier 1 bank
[[BR]]01:13 < einpoklum> ... and interest you in a project I'm working on:
[[BR]]01:13 < mako-sama> stopping
[[BR]]01:14 < einpoklum> it's an extension for Mozilla seamonkey & firebird for RTL/LTR direction control
[[BR]]01:14 <@kuru> einpoklum: you got my interest
[[BR]]01:14 < einpoklum> originally, a person named 'moofie' published the 'hebmailpack' extension
[[BR]]01:15 < einpoklum> and myself and Asaf Romano from bidiui.mozdev.org are working on extending it
[[BR]]01:15 < einpoklum> adding prefs, improving the autodetection algorithm, etc.
[[BR]]01:16 < einpoklum> it's not quite in a finished state, but you can find a very workable version at http://www.earendil.ath.cx/ (scroll down a bit, it's called BiDimailpack)
[[BR]]01:17 <@nadim> hakim_IraqLUG: isoc is a legal entity ?
[[BR]]01:17 <@kuru> einpoklum: what needs to be done?
[[BR]]01:17 <@nadim> hakim_IraqLUG: I ask since we want to get Arabeyes to be a legal entity and don't know where/how to set it up
[[BR]]01:17 < hakim_IraqLUG> ioso? I think yes
[[BR]]01:18 <@nadim> hakim_IraqLUG: in the .uk ?
[[BR]]01:18 < hakim_IraqLUG> no but it is easy to set up a legal entity in the UK
[[BR]]01:18 < einpoklum> kuru: the composer overlay only works in the suite, not in Thunderbird
[[BR]]01:18 < einpoklum> and we want to eventually integrate it into the framework of bidiui.mozdev.org
[[BR]]01:19 < cuco> einpoklum, works for me! thanks! does it work also with the composer?
[[BR]]01:19 < einpoklum> only in seamonkey, not in thunderbird
[[BR]]01:19 < einpoklum> notice also the preferences...
[[BR]]01:19 < hakim_IraqLUG> nadim: you can do it online here http://www.ukplc.net
[[BR]]01:19 <@nadim> hakim_IraqLUG: without all the tax headaches ?
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[[BR]]01:20 <@nadim> and monthly/quaterly paperwork ?
[[BR]]01:20 < IraqLUG_Mahdi> nadim I have been talking with isoc Netherlands to help starting up the project. Also for funding to try  open an office in iraq. 
[[BR]]01:20 < hakim_IraqLUG> nadim: as an NGO it is very simple also they have services to sort that
[[BR]]01:20 < cuco> einpoklum, if you can hack a button to change the direction of the mail composerm thunderbrid will rock
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[[BR]]01:21 <@nadim> hakim_IraqLUG: we really need to talk to someone about all of that - as we tried to get something going in like 3 countries and it was either impossible (most if not all arabic countries) or WAY too paper-centric and lots of work (US)
[[BR]]01:21 < einpoklum> I wasn't really thinking about a button, actually; I'm more of a keyboard shortcut person. Maybe as an option, though, later on.
[[BR]]01:23 < hakim_IraqLUG> nadim: even if u have legal entities you still have jurisdiction problems
[[BR]]01:23 < cuco> einpoklum, how about detecting this automagically? what ever you like. 
[[BR]]01:24 < einpoklum> there is automagic detection! but only for the direction, not for the encoding
[[BR]]01:24 <@kuru> einpoklum: I'm sorry, I'm just not familiar with mozdev extensions -- what are they written in?
[[BR]]01:24 <@nadim> hakim_IraqLUG: not sure that matters - all I hear from various people is that people need to know that 'Arabeyes is a legal entity' whatever that means and we've tried to get it registered as a non-profit organization to no avail
[[BR]]01:25 < einpoklum> kuru: Javascript + XUL + css + RDF
[[BR]]01:25 <@nadim> einpoklum: do please post to Arabeyes 'developer' mailing-list to carry on this interesting topic
[[BR]]01:25 <@kuru> einpoklum: ah
[[BR]]01:25 <@nadim> einpoklum: https://www.arabeyes.org/Mailing_Lists
[[BR]]01:25 < einpoklum> kuru: it sounds more frightening than it is, I've never actually studied any of these...
[[BR]]01:26 <@yuyu> *** DING DONG ***
[[BR]]01:26 < einpoklum> nadim: I will, thanks for the reference
[[BR]]01:26 < hakim_IraqLUG> nadim: legal entity means its a company (can be non profit or charity)
[[BR]]01:26 <@yuyu> Ahmad Khalif presentation in 4 minutes now
[[BR]]01:26 <@yuyu> khalifa, ready ?
[[BR]]01:27 < khalifa> yuyu: umm, kinda...
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[[BR]]01:27 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+v khalifa] by yuyu
[[BR]]01:27 <@nadim> hakim_IraqLUG: yeah, but to do it without lawyers and without monthly tax papers and and and wasn't apparent to us
[[BR]]01:27 <@yuyu> khalifa, you better be ;-)
[[BR]]01:27 < hakim_IraqLUG> nadim: ukplc does all that for you
[[BR]]01:27 <@nadim> khalifa: not ak47 today ? :-)
[[BR]]01:27 <@nadim> hakim_IraqLUG: but we're not in the .uk :-)
[[BR]]01:28 <+khalifa> nadim: nope.. im sticking with this one...
[[BR]]01:28 <@nadim> not sure that matters :-)
[[BR]]01:28 < hakim_IraqLUG> nadim: thats what I said you have problems about jurisdiction
[[BR]]01:28 <@nadim> ah, ok - got it
[[BR]]01:28 <@nadim> I thought you meant post getting it - now I'm clear
[[BR]]01:28 -!- IraqLUG_Mahdi is now known as IraqiLUG_Mahdi_a
[[BR]]01:28 <@nadim> and still screwed :-)
[[BR]]01:29 <@yuyu> 21:30 - 22:00    Ahmad Khalifa          (Arabeyes - PuTTY/MiniBidi/CUPS)
[[BR]]01:29 <@yuyu> one minute to go
[[BR]]01:30 <@yuyu> OK
[[BR]]01:30 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+m] by yuyu
[[BR]]01:30 <@yuyu> khalifa, here you go ;)
[[BR]]01:30 <+khalifa> ok, Salam all..
[[BR]]01:31 <+khalifa> Im Ahmad Khalifa, living in egypt...
[[BR]]01:31 <+khalifa> I came to Arabeyes, back in January...
[[BR]]01:31 <+khalifa> found a link at OOo's website..
[[BR]]01:32 <+khalifa> so, when I first came I signed up as a developer...
[[BR]]01:32 <+khalifa> but didnt know how to help much, so I did little translation...
[[BR]]01:32 <+khalifa> I did a couple of files in a couple of translation projects...
[[BR]]01:33 -!- ADminS [~ADminS@62.139.216.53] has quit [Client Quit]
[[BR]]01:33 <+khalifa> the other members were really helpful, in getting me started and all, as I was a Linux newbie...
[[BR]]01:33 <+khalifa> so anyway,
[[BR]]01:33 <+khalifa> I mainly developed on Windows...
[[BR]]01:34 <+khalifa> so the natural project for me to work on at that time was PuTTY...
[[BR]]01:34 <+khalifa> nadim pointed me in putty's direction...
[[BR]]01:35 <+khalifa> and there was a log of a chat with PuTTY's author mentioning what needed to be done...
[[BR]]01:35 <+khalifa> so i explored the source for a while... a long while actually...
[[BR]]01:36 <+khalifa> it was basically 3 steps.... 1- turn off windows' Shaping/Bidi
[[BR]]01:36 <+khalifa> 2- Implement Own shaping... 3- Find a Bidi Solution...
[[BR]]01:37 <+khalifa> actually 2 was not implement, it was rather 'Plug-In' nadim/Sameer's code
[[BR]]01:38 <+khalifa> ok, so that was putty...
[[BR]]01:39 <+khalifa> the most important thing about the PuTTy patch was the Legal issues...
[[BR]]01:39 <+khalifa> the Licences and stuff...
[[BR]]01:39 <+khalifa> step 3 that is...
[[BR]]01:40 <+khalifa> finding a bidi solution was very difficult, becaus there werent many choices for open source stuff..
[[BR]]01:40 <+khalifa> especially that PuTTY was MIT licensed...
[[BR]]01:41 <+khalifa> so it was either FriBidi (L-GPL), or ICU (MIT-like)...
[[BR]]01:41 <+khalifa> or another Implementation...
[[BR]]01:41 -!- carlos [~carlos@69.Red-80-33-181.pooles.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit]
[[BR]]01:41 <+khalifa> ICU is a massive Library, so it wasnt a very good option, especially that PuTTY is a small terminal emulator..
[[BR]]01:42 <+khalifa> FriBidi had issues... L-GPL  and MIT dont go along very well...
[[BR]]01:42 -!- SeeKeR [~seeker@81.10.24.211] has quit [Client Quit]
[[BR]]01:42 <+khalifa> so, the idea of miniBidi was born during an IRC chat...
[[BR]]01:43 <+khalifa> miniBidi is basicly a direct implementation of the algorithm in 2 files...
[[BR]]01:44 <+khalifa> just implementing the algorithm and leaving it for anyone to plug it into his program...
[[BR]]01:44 <+khalifa> licensing minibidi to be MIT was the best choice for 2 reasons...
[[BR]]01:44 <+khalifa> 1- so it can be plugged into PuTTY (Main reason)
[[BR]]01:45 <+khalifa> 2- so it can be used in Commercial or Open source apps...
[[BR]]01:45 <+khalifa> helping arabic text ordering in any way...
[[BR]]01:45 -!- sebfrance3 [~seb@lns-th2-11-82-64-172-13.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit]
[[BR]]01:46 <+khalifa> currently Im in the middle of plugin minibidi into a patch for CUPS-1.2.x
[[BR]]01:46 -!- mhlmi [~mhlmi@62.139.71.75] has quit [Client Quit]
[[BR]]01:46 <+khalifa> just doing some cosmetics to minibidi, then off the patch goes...
[[BR]]01:46 <+khalifa> thats it...
[[BR]]01:47 <+khalifa> any Qs ??
[[BR]]01:47 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-m] by yuyu
[[BR]]01:47 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-v khalifa] by yuyu
[[BR]]01:47 <@yuyu> khalifa, thanks for the presentation ;)
[[BR]]01:47 < munzir2> First I would like to say I loved you a lot but missed you the previous period, why?
[[BR]]01:47 <@nadim> khalifa: thanks for your presenentation and work !!
[[BR]]01:47 <@nadim> hehe
[[BR]]01:47 < munzir2> khalifa: ^
[[BR]]01:48 <@nadim> khalifa: what has been the hardest thing so far with the work you've done ?
[[BR]]01:48  * IraqLUG_Nabil is away: brb
[[BR]]01:48 < khalifa> munzir2: why wasnt I here earlier you mean??
[[BR]]01:48 <@nadim> khalifa: ie. what would you tell a newbie (such as you were) to give him/her direction ?
[[BR]]01:48 < munzir2> khalifa: We used to see your patches veeeery fast but don't know what happened to you :(
[[BR]]01:48 < vorlon> khalifa: I guess I'm surprised that a print server needs bidi support, can you explain how this is used?
[[BR]]01:49 < khalifa> nadim: the hardest thing, was the first thing.. which was disabling windows shaping/bidi...
[[BR]]01:49 <@nadim> munzir2: he's been busy with school - will be back in a week
[[BR]]01:49 <@nadim> munzir2: a start like khalifa we not be left go easily - I've latched on to him good :-)
[[BR]]01:49 < khalifa> munzir2: ahh, sorry, but im caught up in the graduation project.. just 1 more week and im free...
[[BR]]01:49 <@nadim> s/start/star
[[BR]]01:49 -!- munzir2 is now known as munzir
[[BR]]01:49 <@nadim> s/we/will
[[BR]]01:49 <@yuyu> how long did it take to 'master' the putty code ? [the 'long while' you were speaking about]
[[BR]]01:50 < khalifa> hehe, *start
[[BR]]01:50 <@nadim> vorlon: most printing options out there (including most apps) don't do arabic properly
[[BR]]01:50 <@nadim> vorlon: even mozilla screws it up
[[BR]]01:50 < khalifa> yuyu: dont rememeber exactly, but it took many hours daily, because it was my first contact with a 5000 line C-source file...
[[BR]]01:51 < vorlon> nadim: so is this implemented in the CUPS client library?
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[[BR]]01:51 < munzir> khalifa: I believe you are a capable developer. Would you please give suggestion of what need to be done from others to be in your boat? ;)
[[BR]]01:51 <@nadim> vorlon: and so if you were to print using lpr/enscript/a2ps - you'll get garbage on the printer and that needed to change
[[BR]]01:51 <@nadim> vorlon: I believe so, khalifa  ?
[[BR]]01:51 -!- anmar [~anmar@216.18.0.60] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]01:51 <@nadim> anmar: rise and shine :-)
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[[BR]]01:51 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+o anmar] by ChanServ
[[BR]]01:51 < khalifa> vorlon: my patch fixes CUPS's texttops filter, so it should work with cupsPrintFile()
[[BR]]01:51 < vorlon> nadim: part of my problem is I don't understand the CUPS architecture (because what I do understand of it, I dislike).  To me, it seems this would belong in the postscript renderer.
[[BR]]01:51 <@anmar> nadim: salam
[[BR]]01:51 <@yuyu> khalifa, is minibidi fully compliant with tr#9 ? if not, what needs to be done, and do you need help ?
[[BR]]01:52 < vorlon> khalifa: aha, ok.
[[BR]]01:52 <@yuyu> anmar, salam
[[BR]]01:52 <@anmar> yuyu: slam 
[[BR]]01:52 <@anmar> yuyu: salam ...hehe... can't type. a bit rusty :)
[[BR]]01:52 <@anmar> How is the party guys
[[BR]]01:52 < vorlon> khalifa: next question, since you have experience adding bidi support to applications -- will you be staying around for my presentation, so I can ask *you* questions afterwards? :)
[[BR]]01:53 <@nadim> vorlon: what we need to pay attention to is to not double-bidi for the instances in which an application calls CUPS and it already is doing its own bidi
[[BR]]01:53 < khalifa> munzir: Thanks a lot, im learning... I dont really know... but a small Tutorial or explanation of Bidi/Shaping would've helped me a lot...
[[BR]]01:53 <@anmar> vorlon: salam. How is it hanging :)
[[BR]]01:53 <@nadim> vorlon: so in taht instance, khalifa keep me honest here, we need to be able to toggle Bidi/Arabic support :-)
[[BR]]01:53 <@anmar> vorlon: BTW, have you done any shaping code fixes in the last month ?
[[BR]]01:53 < khalifa> yuyu: Yes, its supposed to be 100% Compliant now....
[[BR]]01:53 < khalifa> vorlon: yup...
[[BR]]01:54 < vorlon> anmar: salam.  Not too bad, busy trying to manage a Debian release... :)
[[BR]]01:54 <@nadim> anmar: we're talking about khalifa and his presentation - let's focus on him please
[[BR]]01:54 <@anmar> nadim: ok.
[[BR]]01:54 <@anmar> sorry guys
[[BR]]01:55 < vorlon> nadim: it seems unlikely that this would be an issue on the text->ps conversion filter.
[[BR]]01:55 < khalifa> nadim: I think bidi/shaping should be left to the Low-Level APIs, like in windows...
[[BR]]01:55 <@nadim> khalifa: with regard to putty any news on the edit/control characters (what we used to call phase-II) ?
[[BR]]01:55 < vorlon> nadim: but, I agree, double-bidi is something to worry about, as I'll talk about in my presentation :)
[[BR]]01:56 < khalifa> nadim: GNU Fribidi is that API :)
[[BR]]01:56 <@nadim> vorlon: given that's the only place bidi/arabic is involved, I'd agree - I haven't looked at the patch or architecture :-)
[[BR]]01:56 <@nadim> khalifa: not quite
[[BR]]01:56 < khalifa> nadim: no news on Putty, but I'd prefer to finish up on CUPS before going back to PuTTY...
[[BR]]01:56 <@nadim> khalifa: I'm talking about moving the cursor in say vi or emacs
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[[BR]]01:57 < khalifa> nadim: vi shouldnt do bidi, and thats the case AFAIK, no??
[[BR]]01:57 <@nadim> khalifa: there is no spec as of today and I talked to Shacher (Wine hacker) and Owen Taylor (who pointer to Behdad) and they seem to agree on the need for a proper spec
[[BR]]01:57 <@yuyu> khalifa, do you need any 'coding' help in what you're doing ?
[[BR]]01:57 <@nadim> khalifa: agreed, but the terminal below it needs to know what to do
[[BR]]01:58 < khalifa> nadim: a spec for what ??
[[BR]]01:58 <@nadim> khalifa: we'll talk later about this
[[BR]]01:58 <@nadim> :-)
[[BR]]01:58 <@nadim> khalifa: are you now developing on linux or still on M$ ?
[[BR]]01:58 < khalifa> yuyu: If someone would take over, until i come back, no problem..  But in a week I should be able to wrap up CUPS in a few days :))
[[BR]]01:59 <@nadim> khalifa: what can arabeyes do to have helped you in the past or new developers coming up ?
[[BR]]01:59 <@yuyu> khalifa, it's more about help than full take over :-)
[[BR]]01:59 < khalifa> nadim: currently Oracle/ PL/SQL stuff... but Still Windows/Java more than Linux...
[[BR]]02:00 < munzir> khalifa: with something like GNOME u2ps why do we need to patch c
[[BR]]02:00 <@yuyu> khalifa, i belive you're fully qualified to continue the work ;-) I'm asking if you need any helping hands of any kind ?
[[BR]]02:00 < munzir> khalifa: with something like GNOME u2ps why do we need to patch CUPS
[[BR]]02:00 < khalifa> nadim: lots, arabeyes could've helped me get started much faster if there was an explanation of Shaping/Bidi and what should've been done...
[[BR]]02:01 < ashraf> hakim_IraqLUG: nice to meet with you online guys
[[BR]]02:01 <@yuyu> khalifa, cool, now you can yourslef write suc document for future newbies ;)
[[BR]]02:01 <@yuyu> ok, time for debian installer
[[BR]]02:01 < khalifa> yuyu: nope, I dont need help, but if you want to do the learning stuff, I'd be happy to help someone with the rest of the patch...
[[BR]]02:01 <@yuyu> khalifa, ok noted
[[BR]]02:01 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+v vorlon] by yuyu
[[BR]]02:01 <@yuyu> *** Ding Dong ***
[[BR]]02:01 <@nadim> khalifa: we'll talk about helping you write such a doc later :-)
[[BR]]02:01 <@nadim> to help others :-)
[[BR]]02:02 <@yuyu> 22:00 - 22:30    Steve Langasek         (Debian-boot)
[[BR]]02:02 < khalifa> munzir: I think CUPS is more widely distributed, and having native arabic support in CUPS would guarantee Wider support in more Distros...
[[BR]]02:02 <@nadim> agreed
[[BR]]02:02 <@nadim> vorlon: its your show :-)
[[BR]]02:02 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+m] by kuru
[[BR]]02:02 <+vorlon> whoops, ok.  Hi. :)
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[[BR]]02:03 <+vorlon> Well, where to begin.  This invitation to speak was a surprise for me, because I don't have particular experience with Arabic support in Unix --
[[BR]]02:03 <+vorlon> I just fell into it because people were asking for it to be supported in the Debian installer
[[BR]]02:04 <+vorlon> Which, now that it's done, I think that makes debian-installer the first text-only Unix installer with bidi support ;)
[[BR]]02:05 <+vorlon> So the way we implemented Arabic support was based on a patch an Israeli developer had started, that adds bidi support to the slang library
[[BR]]02:05 <+vorlon> which was an interesting design decision, that I only looked at *after* the code was written...
[[BR]]02:06 <+vorlon> adding Arabic support involves three challenges:
[[BR]]02:06 <+vorlon> RTL
[[BR]]02:06 <+vorlon> shaping
[[BR]]02:06 <+vorlon> ligatures/combining characters
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[[BR]]02:06 <+vorlon> so far, we've been able to get as far as supporting RTL and shaping/ligatures, but combining characters are still unfinished
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[[BR]]02:07 <+vorlon> Now, there are also three different places where these things can be implemented:
[[BR]]02:07 <+vorlon> - in the text stream itself
[[BR]]02:07 <+vorlon> - in the application that outputs to the terminal
[[BR]]02:07 <+vorlon> - in the terminal
[[BR]]02:08 <+vorlon> well, for RTL the first is obviously the wrong place
[[BR]]02:08 <+vorlon> for most other languages, though, that's where shaping and combining characters are done, which is what makes Arabic such a unique challenge. :)
[[BR]]02:09 <+vorlon> The current d-i design tries to implement all of this in the second step - the application that outputs to the terminal.
[[BR]]02:09 <+vorlon> But this causes problems, since terminals start to support bidi as well -- like Putty and mlterm
[[BR]]02:09 <+vorlon> Double-shaping isn't a problem, but double-bidi definitely is.
[[BR]]02:10 -!- menil [meni@212.199.12.50.forward.012.net.il] has left #arabeyes []
[[BR]]02:10 <+vorlon> So in the next generation of code, we probably want to try to move the bidi support to bterm, the framebuffer terminal we use... but that will take a while
[[BR]]02:10 <+vorlon> anyway, that's as much as I think I have to ramble on about, so I'm ready for questions :)
[[BR]]02:10 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-m] by yuyu
[[BR]]02:11 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-v vorlon] by yuyu
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[[BR]]02:11 <@nadim> vorlon: thanks for presenting and coming !!!
[[BR]]02:11 <@yuyu> vorlon, thanks for presentation ;)
[[BR]]02:11 <@anmar> vorlon: thanks. very insightful
[[BR]]02:11 <@yuyu> vorlon, the arabic support in the d-i was a very good news to us
[[BR]]02:11 < munzir> vorlon: Great! Thanks a lot for your work regarding bidi support.
[[BR]]02:12 <@yuyu> vorlon, the classical question:
[[BR]]02:12 < cuco> vorlon, great work, thanks!
[[BR]]02:12 <@yuyu> vorlon, how can we help ? and how hard is it to start contributiong ?
[[BR]]02:12 < munzir> vorlon: So now I believe all distros next-generation installers would have Arabic support and the honour goes back to you.
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[[BR]]02:13 < vorlon> yuyu: heheh. :)  Well, the current problem we're facing is that the terminal (bterm) doesn't support displaying harakat at all.  This is part of why I start to think putting this in slang was a bad idea.
[[BR]]02:14 < vorlon> So if someone knows C and wants to work on bterm, I'm happy to help get them started on it
[[BR]]02:14 <@yuyu> aha
[[BR]]02:14 <@kuru> vorlon: some url's now would be in order
[[BR]]02:14 < vorlon> hmm, let me dig
[[BR]]02:14 < khalifa> vorlon: what is bterm ?
[[BR]]02:14 <@yuyu> on a practical level, does a newbie need to have debian installed in order to hack and test ?
[[BR]]02:15 < vorlon> khalifa: bterm is a Unicode-capable terminal that runs on the Linux framebuffer
[[BR]]02:15 <@kuru> bterm -- www.bbbs.net
[[BR]]02:15 <@anmar> vorlon: what is bterm ? I am thinking of getting apps such as apt, aptitude and dselect to support full arabic. is bterm part of these as well ?
[[BR]]02:15 <@kuru> yuyu: more like vmware or similar
[[BR]]02:15 <@yuyu> kuru: hrrm
[[BR]]02:15 < vorlon> Arabic support on the traditional Linux console is all but impossible; for most non-Latin languages, you want something more intelligent, that can handle more characters. So debian-installer uses bterm to do this.
[[BR]]02:15 <@yuyu> even with bterm ?
[[BR]]02:15 < khalifa> vorlon: ahh, so its one of those things we dont see :))
[[BR]]02:16 < vorlon> khalifa: yes... :)
[[BR]]02:16 <@yuyu> kuru: still awake ? you impress me ;)
[[BR]]02:16 < vorlon> on the installed system, I think we're using a different terminal, called jfbterm
[[BR]]02:16 <@kuru> yuyu: I've been waiting for vorlon's slot
[[BR]]02:16 <@yuyu> kuru: ah :)
[[BR]]02:17 <@kuru> vorlon: what about things like bicon?
[[BR]]02:17 < vorlon> anmar: when run on the Linux console, yes.  When run from X, you would be using a different terminal; mlterm seems to be the favored one?
[[BR]]02:17 < vorlon> kuru: I'm sorry, I don't recognize the name?
[[BR]]02:17 <@kuru> vorlon: https://www.arabeyes.org/Bicon
[[BR]]02:18 < khalifa> vorlon: I dont know if this is helpful, but in CUPS, Composing chars are dealt with on fread() so they wont interfere with bidi/shaping...
[[BR]]02:18 < vorlon> kuru: hmm, that sounds like it might be a good choice for Debian to use once the installer is completed.
[[BR]]02:18 <@kuru> vorlon: I still think that adding support in Slang is _definitely_ a good idea.
[[BR]]02:19 <@kuru> vorlon: solutions such as bicon are a work-around _because_ such support is not available.
[[BR]]02:19 <@anmar> vorlon: I dont think bicon will give apt the bidi it needs for Arabic support. 
[[BR]]02:19 <@anmar> kuru: I agree. 
[[BR]]02:19 <@kuru> anmar: apt?
[[BR]]02:19 <@anmar> kuru: sorry meant dselect and aptitude (apt tools)
[[BR]]02:19 < vorlon> as far as supporting arabic in applications like dselect and aptitude, they do need to know about different kinds of text; they have to know about how many cells on the terminal a string will take up, to decide how to display it.
[[BR]]02:20 <@kuru> vorlon: so rest assured, you made the right decision ;)
[[BR]]02:20 < vorlon> kuru: does bicon not do shaping?
[[BR]]02:20 <@kuru> vorlon: it does
[[BR]]02:20 < vorlon> ok.
[[BR]]02:20 <@anmar> vorlon: agreed we also need slang to make it aware of arabic and it display laws. that is the real challend I think
[[BR]]02:21 < vorlon> one thing that came from adding bidi support to slang was a cleanup of the Unicode support, though. :)
[[BR]]02:21 <@kuru> vorlon: here is my problem:
[[BR]]02:21 <@kuru> vorlon: I _really_ want to help, but I find the info a bit overwhelming.
[[BR]]02:21 <@kuru> vorlon: not just from an arabic perspective, but because I simply think Debian is the best distro there is ;)
[[BR]]02:22 -!- HasIraqiLUG [~HasIraqiL@client-81-107-204-229.glfd.adsl.virgin.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
[[BR]]02:22 <@anmar> kuru: I second that :)
[[BR]]02:22 < vorlon> kuru: I understand being overwhelmed, I'm having a hard time with it myself.  There's no one working on an overall design for Arabic support in Debian right now -- just a few developers reacting to requests...
[[BR]]02:22 <@kuru> vorlon: well I would like to get in the middle of all this -- where do you suggest I start (aside from the lists -- that's a given)
[[BR]]02:24 < vorlon> kuru: probably a good place to start is for us to just have a nice long chat about this on IRC, sometime when there's no time limit. :)
[[BR]]02:24 <@kuru> vorlon: sure.
[[BR]]02:24 -!- hakim_IraqLUG is now known as hakim
[[BR]]02:24 <@kuru> vorlon: when are you usually free and on irc?
[[BR]]02:24 < vorlon> We definitely need a design.  I don't have enough experience to do this by myself.  Once we have a design, it's easier to get other people involved.
[[BR]]02:25 < vorlon> kuru: usually from 1900-0700 UTC
[[BR]]02:25 <@kuru> vorlon: when I'm asleep ;) okay -- will try to catch you then ;)
[[BR]]02:25 <@nadim> vorlon: when you compile from the get go - bterm is used and not the console, is that right ?
[[BR]]02:26 <@nadim> s/compile/install
[[BR]]02:26 <@yuyu> kuru i'm interested too :)
[[BR]]02:26 <@kuru> yuyu: we will both gang up on vorlon then ;)
[[BR]]02:26 < vorlon> kuru: well, I'm usually awake and here for a few hours outside of that range, but I can't promise which side of the range it would be. :)
[[BR]]02:26 <@yuyu> kuru, yeah ;)
[[BR]]02:26 < vorlon> nadim: when you install Debian, if your system supports framebuffer, bterm is the first thing that's loaded.
[[BR]]02:27 < vorlon> If bterm can't be loaded, you get latin1 only.
[[BR]]02:27 <@kuru> vorlon: that's not good
[[BR]]02:27 <@nadim> vorlon: bterm is used also when you make changes to an apt via --reconfigure ?
[[BR]]02:27 < vorlon> nadim: no, right now bterm is only used in the installer.
[[BR]]02:27 <@nadim> what is used otherwise - curses ?
[[BR]]02:27 <@kuru> I am under the impression bterm should go
[[BR]]02:28 <@kuru> vorlon: what else depends on bterm?
[[BR]]02:28 <@nadim> kuru: or get improved
[[BR]]02:28 <@kuru> nadim: no, just go away ;)
[[BR]]02:28 < vorlon> nadim: I guess I need to explain better
[[BR]]02:28 <@nadim> kuru: I'm thinking can't bicon be extended to do all this ?
[[BR]]02:28 <@nadim> vorlon: sorry if I'm being dense :-)
[[BR]]02:28 < vorlon> bterm is the terminal implementation.  It's equivalent to xterm, or putty, or mlterm -- but it runs on the framebuffer.
[[BR]]02:28 <@kuru> nadim: bicon would be ideal for cli stuff that doesn't require drawing on the console
[[BR]]02:29 < vorlon> You then have an application on top of that, often using slang or ncurses or readline
[[BR]]02:29 <@nadim> kuru: nothing gets drawn during install - as far as I remember (its all text based)
[[BR]]02:29 <@nadim> vorlon: noted
[[BR]]02:29 < vorlon> In the installer, we use a slang-based text application running on bterm
[[BR]]02:29 <@kuru> vorlon: curses/slang draw on your screen (little boxes, etc.)
[[BR]]02:29 < vorlon> After installation, we install jfbterm if you were installing in Arabic, and jfbterm provides the same kind of unicode-capable Linux console
[[BR]]02:30 <@kuru> vorlon: so bterm is essentially like bicon.
[[BR]]02:30 <@nadim> so the arabic support is outside of bterm anyways, what's the issue again ? :-)
[[BR]]02:30 <@nadim> ah, bterm doesn't do harakat
[[BR]]02:30 <@nadim> right ?
[[BR]]02:30 < vorlon> when you use aptitude or dselect, these use ncurses, which does not have bidi support. But if you run dpkg-reconfigure <package>, this uses slang, which supports bidi both before and after the install: so long as the terminal underneath can display the characters
[[BR]]02:31 < vorlon> nadim: right
[[BR]]02:31 < vorlon> we have the harakat in the font, but bterm doesn't display them.
[[BR]]02:31 <@kuru> hrmm.
[[BR]]02:31 < vorlon> kuru: from what I understand of bicon, yes.
[[BR]]02:31 <@kuru> generally (and some may disagree) harakat is not necessary under the console.
[[BR]]02:31 <@kuru> but it's _availability_ is important.
[[BR]]02:31 <@nadim> vorlon: ok, can't we ask debian to settle on one solution (for --reconfigure and dselect) ?
[[BR]]02:32 <@nadim> kuru: Its a necesarry evil unless we can 100% live without 'em in all our strings
[[BR]]02:32 < vorlon> kuru: currently, all messages in the installer are displayed without harakat.  What I understand of the Arabic language tells me that this is less important than it would be in other languages, but it would be nice to have, yes?
[[BR]]02:33 < vorlon> nadim: you can help *design* a solution... no one in Debian has expertise right now to pick a solution on their own:)
[[BR]]02:33 <@nadim> vorlon: anohter quickie - doesn't curses use slang (aren't they somehoe related) ?
[[BR]]02:33 <@nadim> vorlon: meaning, there is room to say "we will only use slang on all our applications" that's what I mean.
[[BR]]02:33 < vorlon> nadim: curses does not use slang; these are two different libraries to do roughly the same thing (full-screen text applications)
[[BR]]02:34 <@kuru> vorlon: correct. you can figure out the pronounciation from the context -- but in some unrelated applications harakat under the console would be needed. I (personally) don't think it should be there in an installer to begin with (but I get the feeling I'm on my own on this one)
[[BR]]02:34 <@nadim> ok, I stand corrected
[[BR]]02:34 < mako-sama> hmm. i guess i missed lot of fun :|
[[BR]]02:34 < vorlon> kuru: well, I'm sure this is why the harakat are the last thing to be supported. :)
[[BR]]02:34 < vorlon> also, I don't know if harakat are more important for Farsi than for Arabic?  We have people interested in Farsi as well.
[[BR]]02:35 <@nadim> vorlon: are you familiar enough with BiCon to have an opinion about it ?
[[BR]]02:35 <@kuru> vorlon: they have the same weight for both languages.
[[BR]]02:35 <@kuru> vorlon: think of them as vowels (to oversimplify)
[[BR]]02:35 <@nadim> kuru: or did you suggest to replace bterm with BiCon ?
[[BR]]02:35 < vorlon> nadim: sorry, I'm not.
[[BR]]02:35 <@nadim> vorlon: no prob
[[BR]]02:36 < vorlon> kuru: yes, I just wondered if they were more important for Farsi because of the different language root
[[BR]]02:36 <@kuru> nadim: I'm not sure how bicon would react to a system without a framebuffer
[[BR]]02:36 <@kuru> nadim: but I think it would act the same way
[[BR]]02:36 < munzir> vorlon: can you specify what's bicon missing to be a viable solution?
[[BR]]02:36 <@nadim> kuru: I thought bterm needed a framebuffer else its latin1
[[BR]]02:36 <@nadim> munzir: vorlon is not familiar with bicon
[[BR]]02:36 <@kuru> nadim: like I said, I'm not sure how bicon would react without a framebuffer.
[[BR]]02:37 <@nadim> well it won't be any worse than now :-)
[[BR]]02:37 <@kuru> hdh
[[BR]]02:37 <@kuru> heh
[[BR]]02:37 < vorlon> munzir: well, if we are talking about post-install, I think most people would like to see one good framebuffer terminal with support for many languages (jfbterm) instead of separate packages for each language
[[BR]]02:37 < munzir> nadim: then we need some one with enough expertise to study all the available options and decide
[[BR]]02:37 <@nadim> we don't have a solutiion no matter how you look at for none framebuffer situations :-)
[[BR]]02:38 <@kuru> vorlon: bicon would work for any bidi based script
[[BR]]02:38 <@kuru> I'm not sure what jfbterm's scope is
[[BR]]02:38 <@nadim> jfbterm is fully unicode (and bidi) friendly ?
[[BR]]02:38 <@kuru> their site doesn't offer much in terms of documentation
[[BR]]02:38 <@nadim> kuru: I think its similar to mlterm in context
[[BR]]02:39 <@kuru> nadim: so what's up with the j and f and b?
[[BR]]02:39 <@nadim> heheh
[[BR]]02:39 <@nadim> someone's initials, not sure :-)
[[BR]]02:39 < vorlon> fb = frame buffer
[[BR]]02:39 <@kuru> j?
[[BR]]02:39 < vorlon> j may be "japanese", actually :)
[[BR]]02:39 <@kuru> vorlon: that's what I thought
[[BR]]02:40 <@kuru> vorlon: the japanese have done wonders for i18n, they earned the j ;)
[[BR]]02:40 < vorlon> :)
[[BR]]02:40 <@nadim> so beyond bterm (on console) install with and without frambuffer I think we have issues
[[BR]]02:40 < vorlon> Within the installer, we *must* have a single framebuffer console app that supports all these languages, otherwise we can't display the language selection.
[[BR]]02:40 -!- olimar [~olimar@p213.54.97.49.tisdip.tiscali.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
[[BR]]02:41 <@nadim> ourside of the console world we seem to have options (mlterm, jfbterm, etc) - does that sum things up ?
[[BR]]02:41 < vorlon> nadim: jfbterm is console as well.
[[BR]]02:41 <@nadim> ah, damn it :_)
[[BR]]02:41 <@nadim> hehe
[[BR]]02:41 <@kuru> nadim: jfbterm and bicon do the same thing.
[[BR]]02:41 <@kuru> nadim: now I'm almost convinced bicon does slightly more
[[BR]]02:41 <@nadim> so why not just jfbterm then instead of bterm ?
[[BR]]02:42 < vorlon> nadim: size, maybe?  I don't know for sure.
[[BR]]02:42 < vorlon> size is always a concern for the installer.
[[BR]]02:42 <@nadim> sounds like a question to ask.
[[BR]]02:42 <@nadim> vorlon: but it could be something a user can be prompted for, no ?
[[BR]]02:42 <@nadim> ie. to press y/n or 1/2 or something
[[BR]]02:42 < vorlon> yes, but I can tell you there's no way jfbterm could be included in the installer for sarge.  There's no time for a change like that.
[[BR]]02:43 < vorlon> But fixes to bterm are possible.
[[BR]]02:43 <@nadim> sure.
[[BR]]02:43 <@nadim> when is sarge out ?
[[BR]]02:43 < vorlon> nadim: prompting what, please?
[[BR]]02:43 < vorlon> We're hoping to release sarge in September.
[[BR]]02:44 <@nadim> ie. to ask the user which term would you like to use as an option (while that prompt is being displayed in english to select unicode-friendly or small-footprint-gizmo (ie. bterm)))
[[BR]]02:44 -!- otaylor [~otaylor@nat-pool-bos.redhat.com] has quit ["Leaving"]
[[BR]]02:44 < vorlon> nadim: well, all of the code that does the prompting currently runs inside bterm, which is as unicode-friendly as we currently have. :)
[[BR]]02:44 <@nadim> vorlon: the slang patch, has it been accepted upsteam ?
[[BR]]02:45 <@nadim> vorlon: I think we got the picture - we'll talk about it more later I guess :-)
[[BR]]02:45 < vorlon> And putting a question in English at the front, is bad for people who don't speak English.  We've tried hard to avoid that.
[[BR]]02:45 < vorlon> I don't know if it's been accepted upstream.
[[BR]]02:45 < vorlon> I'm not sure if upstream is active. :)
[[BR]]02:45 <@nadim> ouch
[[BR]]02:46 <@nadim> if its not active, can we include an release a slang-release+1 :-)
[[BR]]02:46 < mako-sama> oh.. serge is coming soon ? that's great
[[BR]]02:46 < mako-sama> finally :p
[[BR]]02:46 < vorlon> :)
[[BR]]02:46 <@kuru> sep. sarge will be stable?
[[BR]]02:46 <@nadim> mako-sama: vorlon said sept. but not which year :-)
[[BR]]02:46 -!- munzir [~munzir@212.71.63.169] has quit [""can't open my eyes more but it's a really useful party""]
[[BR]]02:46 < mako-sama> ah.. 
[[BR]]02:47 < vorlon> nadim: ha-ha.  This year. :P
[[BR]]02:47 < mako-sama> nadim: don't make it sound worse :p
[[BR]]02:47 < vorlon> We've already started to freeze the base system in preparation for the release.  If we left it that way for a year, I'd be lynched. :P
[[BR]]02:48 <@kuru> vorlon: what will happen to woody ?
[[BR]]02:48 < mako-sama> vorlon: that sounds normal to me.. just like woody :p
[[BR]]02:48 <@nadim> vorlon: I really want to thank you for all your help and your interest as well as time - its very rare that you meet people simply interested in helping and for that you are commended - again thanks for coming and talking to us and I really really hope we can work together more
[[BR]]02:48 < mako-sama> "that's debian"
[[BR]]02:48 < vorlon> kuru: it becomes "oldstable", with security support for x months
[[BR]]02:48 <@nadim> vorlon: did some of _your_ questions get answered ?
[[BR]]02:48 <@kuru> vorlon: funky..
[[BR]]02:48 < mako-sama> i'd really love to throw serge on one of the servers here
[[BR]]02:49  * kuru wonders if ttf-arabeyes would make it to sarge 
[[BR]]02:49 < vorlon> nadim: thanks for having me.  Yes, you helped me answer some of my questions, and I hope I was able to answer some of yours. :)
[[BR]]02:49 < mako-sama> oh right.. that's somthing to consider
[[BR]]02:49 < vorlon> kuru: yes, it'll make it into testing tomorrow. :)
[[BR]]02:49 < mako-sama> great
[[BR]]02:50 <@kuru> vorlon: _excellent_ ;)
[[BR]]02:50 <@nadim> vorlon: don't be a stranger and do please pop in here anytime you like, I'm almost certain we'll be in contact on various issues since alot of us are heavy debian users :-)
[[BR]]02:50 <@kuru> nadim: see, now if you did that overlaying harakat thing by now, it would have made it to sarge ;)
[[BR]]02:50 <@nadim> kuru: sounds like I need to get the newer version of those fonts out
[[BR]]02:50 -!- anmar_ [~anmar@d207-6-222-111.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]02:51 <@nadim> kuru: we need to change the name to a proper name :-)
[[BR]]02:51 < mako-sama> I'm not a big fan of debian, but i think it makes a great server distro :)
[[BR]]02:51 <@kuru> nadim: yeah, the sooner the better
[[BR]]02:51 <@kuru> nadim: sure.. but changing the name _may_ result in a longer wait in the queue
[[BR]]02:51 < mako-sama> but.. you don't know what might happen after i do a 'testing installation' ;)
[[BR]]02:51 <@nadim> kuru: I'm exhausted for all this party planning (hint hint :-)
[[BR]]02:51 < anmar_> kuru: mako-sama hehe...
[[BR]]02:51 < anmar_> yuyu: can you please kick anmar 
[[BR]]02:52 <@kuru> nadim: I think anmar will have to take over moderation
[[BR]]02:52 -!- anmar_ was kicked from #arabeyes by nadim [nadim]
[[BR]]02:52 < mako-sama> hahahaha
[[BR]]02:52 <@yuyu> hehehe
[[BR]]02:52 -!- anmar_ [~anmar@d207-6-222-111.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]02:52 < mako-sama> i think he ment the ghost
[[BR]]02:52 <@yuyu> nadim, you kicked the wrong one
[[BR]]02:52 <@nadim> hehehe
[[BR]]02:52 <@kuru> I am going to crash soon.
[[BR]]02:52 < anmar_> nadim: I need anmar kicked silly and NOT anmar_
[[BR]]02:52 -!- anmar was kicked from #arabeyes by kuru [go away]
[[BR]]02:52 <@nadim> sorry man
[[BR]]02:52 < vorlon> nadim: likewise, people that are interested in this, please join us on #debian-boot. :)
[[BR]]02:52 <@nadim> heheh
[[BR]]02:52 < anmar_> nadim: no biggie
[[BR]]02:52 <@nadim> vorlon: again thanks
[[BR]]02:53 < mako-sama> anmar_: you don't have the nick registered ?
[[BR]]02:53 < anmar_> mako-sama: my winblows work machine pucked and left me hanging
[[BR]]02:53 <@yuyu> vorlon, i think you'll soon see some of us there ;)
[[BR]]02:53 <@kuru> nadim: are you going to be here till the end?
[[BR]]02:53 <@kuru> I only stayed up for vorlon really..
[[BR]]02:53 <@yuyu> kuru: i am till the end 
[[BR]]02:53 <@kuru> it's 3am here ;)
[[BR]]02:53 <@kuru> yuyu: you're a soldier ;)
[[BR]]02:54 <@nadim> kuru: for another 30 minutes, I guess so :-)
[[BR]]02:54 <@yuyu> kuru: go to sleep
[[BR]]02:54 <@kuru> yuyu: I thought you were going to take off after bayani!
[[BR]]02:54 <@nadim> kuru: I got up at 4am !!
[[BR]]02:54 -!- anmar_ is now known as anmar_arabbix
[[BR]]02:54 < mako-sama> anmar_: if you have your nick registered, you could do /quote ns ghost anmar password << that'd take care of killing the ghost :)
[[BR]]02:54 <@kuru> nadim: yeah, you need to go too
[[BR]]02:54 < anmar_arabbix> mako-sama: ok I will do that. thanks
[[BR]]02:54 <@yuyu> kuru: nah, i just wanted to take a rest, not leave
[[BR]]02:54 <@kuru> yuyu: cause I don't trust this anmar_arabbix guy
[[BR]]02:55 < anmar_arabbix> mako-sama: hehe.. it says anmar is already in use 
[[BR]]02:55 <@yuyu> hehhehe
[[BR]]02:55 <@nadim> kuru: you're not going to hassle anmar about arabbix ?
[[BR]]02:55 <@kuru> nadim: you have no idea how much I want to ;)
[[BR]]02:55 < mako-sama> anmar_arabbix: did you kill the ghost ?
[[BR]]02:55 <@nadim> hehe
[[BR]]02:55 <@kuru> nadim: but I think he heard if all from me already
[[BR]]02:55 < anmar_arabbix> kuru: remember I am away... so don't rely on at at all :)
[[BR]]02:55 <@nadim> he's last for a reason :-)
[[BR]]02:55 <@yuyu> anmar_arabbix, btw, you better resgiter your nick
[[BR]]02:55 <@nadim> to leave that sour taste in our mouths :-) heheehe
[[BR]]02:55 < mako-sama> sometimes freenode's server act weird ;\
[[BR]]02:56 < anmar_arabbix> yuyu: dude.. it is registered...
[[BR]]02:56 -!- anmar_arabbix is now known as anmar
[[BR]]02:56 <@yuyu> anmar_arabbix, then you should be able to recover your nick without kicjing and such
[[BR]]02:56 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+o anmar] by ChanServ
[[BR]]02:56 <@anmar> hehe.. I am back :)
[[BR]]02:56 <@nadim> <<NOTICE>> Anmar to start in 3 minutes
[[BR]]02:56 <@yuyu> 23:00 - 23:30    Anmar Oueja            (Arabeyes - Arabbix)
[[BR]]02:56 <@anmar> nadim: yeah.. that is why I am here.
[[BR]]02:56 <@anmar> brb (in 2 mins)
[[BR]]02:57 <@nadim> anmar: I think you are here since I've been buggin you every 10 minutes :-)
[[BR]]02:57 <@nadim> I need a week vacation after this and a pay hike :-)
[[BR]]02:57 <@nadim> yet we have only 1 group of people not show up
[[BR]]02:57 <@yuyu> hehe
[[BR]]02:58 <@nadim> so that's good
[[BR]]02:58 <@yuyu> nadim, i think this one is far better than last year's 
[[BR]]02:58 <@nadim> yuyu: I feel just as tired though :-)
[[BR]]02:58 <@kuru> yuyu: agreed.
[[BR]]02:58 <@yuyu> nadim, thanks to your efforts ;)
[[BR]]02:59 < mako-sama> i was in the middle of tests last year, but I too think this year is better :)
[[BR]]02:59 <@nadim> yuyu: we're improving with age that's all :-)
[[BR]]02:59 <@anmar> back
[[BR]]02:59 <@kuru> nadim: I feel exhausted, so I don't even want to know how you feel ;)
[[BR]]02:59 <@nadim> good ideas -> better results
[[BR]]02:59 <@yuyu> nadim, yeah, look like
[[BR]]02:59 <@anmar> nadim: yeah.. I saw some of the emails. awsome effort man. Thanks a lot
[[BR]]02:59 <@nadim> anmar: ok, its your show now
[[BR]]02:59 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+m] by yuyu, nadim
[[BR]]02:59 -!- mode/#arabeyes [+m] by kuru
[[BR]]02:59 <@yuyu> heheheheeeeeee
[[BR]]02:59 <@kuru> heheheheh
[[BR]]02:59 <@anmar> nadim: thanks
[[BR]]03:00 <@yuyu> anmar, we are all ears (eyes) ;)
[[BR]]03:00 <@kuru> ***   23:00 - 23:30    Anmar Oueja            (Arabeyes - Arabbix) ***
[[BR]]03:00 <@anmar> I  can yack for an hour... but I am not sure people want to hear me. So If you have any questions or discussions we can start with to warm up the room a bit :)
[[BR]]03:01 <@yuyu> anmar, a presentation please ;)
[[BR]]03:01 <@anmar> OK. 
[[BR]]03:01 <@yuyu> make it 5 minutes if you want ;)
[[BR]]03:01 <@anmar> Arabbix is currently in Alpha 1 stage
[[BR]]03:01 <@anmar> yuyu: noted
[[BR]]03:02 <@anmar> I will start first by giving everybody a glimpse of what is arabbix and who am i... etc
[[BR]]03:02 <@anmar> Arabbix is a Morphix based (www.morphix.org) live CD that
[[BR]]03:03 <@anmar> Arabbix sole purpose is to introduce all arabic speakers to linux with least convenience
[[BR]]03:04 <@anmar> Arabic interface is just one of the things that Arabbix offer
[[BR]]03:04 <@anmar> It is also a vehicle to show all arabeyes projects 
[[BR]]03:05 <@anmar> Arabbix 0.8 was released and was a considerable success among Arabic speakers
[[BR]]03:05 <@anmar> currently we are in Alpha1 of Arabbix 0.9
[[BR]]03:06 <@anmar> There are many things planned for Arabbix 0.9 but time lately have been quite scarce
[[BR]]03:06 <@anmar> Arabbix 0.9 hopes to address some deficiencies that Arabbix 0.8 suffered from. Namely:
[[BR]]03:06 <@anmar> 1. Hard disk installation
[[BR]]03:07 <@anmar> 2. Hardware detection
[[BR]]03:07 <@anmar> 3. Uptodate GNOME apps
[[BR]]03:07 <@anmar> I think that is pretty much it
[[BR]]03:07 <@anmar> Questions please :)
[[BR]]03:08 -!- mode/#arabeyes [-m] by yuyu
[[BR]]03:08 <@yuyu> anmar, thanks for the presentation ;)
[[BR]]03:08 <@yuyu> so, is there any schedule for the realese ?
[[BR]]03:08 <@nadim> anmar: yeah, thanks for coming and presenting
[[BR]]03:09 -!- devnull_ [~chatzilla@bzq-255-122.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["keep on partying, you RTL people"]
[[BR]]03:09 <@anmar> the schedule is set. the problem is knowing when to start.
[[BR]]03:09 <@yuyu> anmar, sorry, i meant any date on when to expect a final release
[[BR]]03:09 <@nadim> anmar: with the recent flurry of various people involved in various Arabic LUGs coming up with their own distros, do you see any synergy or commonality to which end you might want to sit down with them and join forces ?
[[BR]]03:10 <@nadim> anmar: I've heard of 3 just today
[[BR]]03:10 <@anmar> yuyu: Not yet as I am settling things down
[[BR]]03:10 <@kuru> the main reason all these distro's are coming out is because no one seems to be able to contribute to Arabbix
[[BR]]03:10 < mako-sama> 3 ?
[[BR]]03:10 <@nadim> kuru: that's part 2 of my Q :-)
[[BR]]03:10 < mako-sama> one from elug and another from llug
[[BR]]03:11 <@nadim> kuru: you see, you rope them in and then pounce on 'em :-)
[[BR]]03:11 <@anmar> nadim: well I am open to work with anybody who wants to adopt Arabbix or use some of the work done on it.
[[BR]]03:11 <@nadim> and other that was pasted in passing from a non-LUG :-)
[[BR]]03:11 <@anmar> kuru: that is somewhat true.
[[BR]]03:11 <@anmar> I have always asked people to approach me to work on arabbix and I was willing to help them out as much as possible. 
[[BR]]03:12 <@nadim> anmar: what can we expect in terms of getting someone interested (and there have been 3-4) to actually get invovled and productful in contributing to arabbix ?
[[BR]]03:12 <@anmar> Although I wrote a small (too late) how to hack Arabbix, the entire docs are all there in MOrphix.org site.
[[BR]]03:12 <@nadim> anmar: ie. in terms of docs and clear direction on what to do and how and where ?
[[BR]]03:12 <@anmar> nadim: I think first of all, I need to know who is willing to contribute, what they are interested in doing. Once that is clarified, we can develop a list of tasks they want to work on and do it
[[BR]]03:13 <@kuru> Since most of our discussions regarding arabbix and contributions have not public, I will make this for the record..
[[BR]]03:13 <@anmar> I will be more than happy to share my knowledge with anybody who is interested in Arabbix project.
[[BR]]03:13 <@nadim> anmar: ie. the biggest problem now with arabbix I think is that most want to help and none know what to do or how to do it - do you envision that changing ?
[[BR]]03:14 <@kuru> 1. Contribution to Arabbix (or any other project on Arabeyes) should not be based on a personal contact with the maintainer, but the contributor should be able to make the contribution and _then_ coordinate with the maintainer to get his/her contribution accepted.
[[BR]]03:14 <@nadim> anmar: I think that's a bit contrary to how we've done things
[[BR]]03:14 <@nadim> we tend to work task/job oriented instead of people oriented
[[BR]]03:14 <@nadim> ie. we list the jobs and marry people to 'em not vice versa
[[BR]]03:14 <@kuru> 2. Just because docs are in Morphix.com is not a reason to why the modified scripts and list of packages, etc. are not present in Arabeyes' CVS
[[BR]]03:15 <@anmar> nadim: there is some truth to that. but please don't forget that all the docs on how to hack Arabbix (morphix) is listed out in mprhix.org site. there is nothing new that Arabbix is adding other than some packages and arabic default language setting
[[BR]]03:15 <@nadim> anmar: would it ease life if one of us went thorugh the entire process with you to document it ?
[[BR]]03:15 <@kuru> 3. I am increasingly concerned about the future of Arabbix as a project that people can built on top of, as opposed to, "let's just do it from scratch" type of project.
[[BR]]03:15 <@kuru> ok, I'm done.
[[BR]]03:16 <@anmar> kuru: that is true.. but Morphix is rather badly organized and have lots and lots of stale files. that is why I always told people, if you want to hack Arabbix, download the CD and all you need is in there. I will be happy to guide you.
[[BR]]03:16 <@nadim> anmar: I second kuru's points (esp #3 - that is a BIGGIE to me :-)
[[BR]]03:16 <@yuyu> anmar, the question is how to add those new things, and what are they. is everything on Arabeyes CVS ?
[[BR]]03:16 <@kuru> anmar: you are still not getting what I'm saying.
[[BR]]03:16 <@kuru> anmar: you modify scripts
[[BR]]03:16 <@kuru> anmar: you install specific Arabic packages.
[[BR]]03:16 <@kuru> anmar: you do things that are nt in morphix
[[BR]]03:16 <@anmar> kuru: no.. no scripts are being modified.. 
[[BR]]03:16 <@kuru> anmar: this stuff is not documented nor is it present in CVS.
[[BR]]03:16 <@kuru> anmar: this is a _serious_ problem.
[[BR]]03:17 <@anmar> OK. let me tell you all the simple facts about arabbix.
[[BR]]03:17 <@kuru> I cannot stress how serious this is ;)
[[BR]]03:17 <@yuyu> anmar, please do
[[BR]]03:17 <@nadim> anmar: I really think one of us needs to go through all of this to document it - simple as that
[[BR]]03:17  * kuru hears it -- half asleep of course ;)
[[BR]]03:17 <@nadim> yuyu: I don't think the time is now for this
[[BR]]03:17 <@anmar> first of all, Arabbix is simply Morphix base module with grub menu item that says use ar instead of us.
[[BR]]03:18 <@anmar> that is all for the base module
[[BR]]03:18 <@nadim> this is a party - we have issues with arabbix the important point is to realize and admit we can improve on things and work to that end
[[BR]]03:18 <@anmar> the main module that has gnome has absoloutly nothing new. it is a simple apt-get install this and that.
[[BR]]03:18 <@anmar> nadim: true... 
[[BR]]03:18 <@anmar> nadim: ok.. so to answer your question
[[BR]]03:18 <@nadim> anmar: we'll talk in length about this later
[[BR]]03:19 <@yuyu> anmar, all the changes you do are done 'by hand' ?
[[BR]]03:19 <@nadim> worse come to worse, I'll build and import all the files to CVS myself :-)
[[BR]]03:19 <@anmar> yuyu: we are talking two changes .. nothing more
[[BR]]03:19 <@anmar> nadim: that will not help. 
[[BR]]03:19 <@nadim> and perl *yes perl* script it :-)
[[BR]]03:19 <@yuyu> anmar, you mean there's no way to 'record' (in whatever way) those changes
[[BR]]03:19 <@anmar> yuyu: I have them in the arabbix CD and in the log and in the how to I wrote that is in arabeyes cvs
[[BR]]03:20 <@yuyu> anmar, ok
[[BR]]03:20 <@anmar> OK. let us get back to the object of this presentation.
[[BR]]03:20 <@nadim> anmar: I think the point being made is the need to replicate your work (and replicate here also mean educate and build upon) so that others can benefit
[[BR]]03:20 -!- seeker [~seeker@81.10.24.211] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]03:20 <@kuru> anmar: when do you anticipate a 0.9 release to be out? ;)
[[BR]]03:21 <@nadim> anmar: beyond how things are being done - what do you anticipate a need for in arabbix ?
[[BR]]03:21 <@anmar> nadim: abosloutly... I am not against it at all.. but not one person who was intrested in Arabbix development did anything and I always offered help with no conditions
[[BR]]03:21 <@kuru> anmar: something with sexy backgrounds, funky themes, etc. ;)
[[BR]]03:21 <@yuyu> anmar, you mean if I read the howto on CVS i should be able to _exactly_ replicate Arrabix 0.9a or 0.8 ?
[[BR]]03:21 <@anmar> kuru: 0.9 final will not be out before end of Sept.
[[BR]]03:21 <@nadim> anmar: for instance, a number of people asked me when/if Quran application will be included - is that doable ?
[[BR]]03:21 <@anmar> yuyu: yes.. but the question is from what base ?
[[BR]]03:22 <@anmar> nadim: absoloutly we can add anyting they want .
[[BR]]03:22 <@yuyu> anmar, morphix version x or y
[[BR]]03:22 <@anmar> nadim: the how to I wrote in CVS clearly shows how to add apps to Arabbix
[[BR]]03:22 <@anmar> yuyu: well that is not an easy question to answer. trust me
[[BR]]03:22 <@yuyu> anmar, hrm
[[BR]]03:22 <@anmar> yuyu: ok. let me explain
[[BR]]03:23 <@nadim> anmar: does arabeyes have a mechanism in place to let people vote or ask for application inclusion ?
[[BR]]03:23 <@anmar> nadim: no. we don't have that but we can easily add it to the arabeyes.org or arabbix.org website
[[BR]]03:23 <@anmar> nadim: email also work (lists)
[[BR]]03:24 <@anmar> I strongly advice all people who want to add something to arabbix is to file a bug for arabbix requesting the app be added
[[BR]]03:24 <@anmar> for example. Arabbix 0.9 has a complete C , C++ dev tools . that was one of the biggest requests we had from 0.8 release
[[BR]]03:25 <@nadim> anmar: if you needed help - what would it be with regard ?
[[BR]]03:25 <@anmar> another example, is having 0.9 with GNOME 2.6. that was the main reason why Arabbix 0.9 alpha 1 was delayed. GNOME 2.6 did not make it into Debian (arabbix is based on morphix whic is based on debian) until 3  months ago I believe
[[BR]]03:26 <@anmar> ok. the help we need in Arabbix focuses on the 3 points I mentioned in my presentation. 
[[BR]]03:26 <@anmar> namely the HDinstaller
[[BR]]03:26 <@anmar> HD Installer.
[[BR]]03:27 <@anmar> we need to make sure that HD installer is : fully operational, will not eat your partition table, and fully localized.
[[BR]]03:27 <@yuyu> anmar, and some artistic work, right ?
[[BR]]03:27 <@anmar> yuyu: absoloutly.. but that is more of a luxury than a requirement
[[BR]]03:27 <@yuyu> anmar, ok
[[BR]]03:27 <@nadim> anmar: that help is to look completely into those functions or to debug something specific or need scripts or ...  - in other words, its general or specific in nature ?
[[BR]]03:27 <@yuyu> anmar, is the HD installer tewt-based, or ?
[[BR]]03:27 <@yuyu> s/tewt/text
[[BR]]03:28 <@anmar> the HDinstaller is made up for many tools. The best way to do is to work with the Morphix group to help test it, fix it and debug it. HD installer tools are all GTK based
[[BR]]03:29 <@anmar> Another alternative I am thinking about it using MEPIS HD installer tools to install Arabbix. the question is how feasible this is. Not clear yet .
[[BR]]03:29 <@yuyu> anmar, ok, so there should be no pb with l10n
[[BR]]03:29 <@anmar> yuyu: yes
[[BR]]03:29 <@yuyu> excpet translation of course ;)
[[BR]]03:29 <@anmar> yuyu: hehe.. yeah
[[BR]]03:29 <@nadim> anmar: thanks again for your time and effort - we all love arabbix and were blown away by it that's why some of us get heated when we talk about it - there is room for improvement of the process and we'll hopefully work to that end (we'll beat it to death if need be and get it right), for we want this to be a premier tutorial for those looking to build distros - again thanks for your time and presentation
[[BR]]03:30 <@anmar> My pleasure.. 
[[BR]]03:30 <@anmar> nadim: who are the other arabic live distros you mentioned ?
[[BR]]03:30 <@nadim> <<NOTICE>> Party effectivly over - its your last 30 minutes of free time
[[BR]]03:30 <@nadim> where are the fireworks ??? :-)
[[BR]]03:31 <@yuyu> nadim, all over the place ;)
[[BR]]03:31 <@anmar> splish splash splosh
[[BR]]03:31 < cuco> night all... good party... 
[[BR]]03:31 <@anmar> cuco: thanks for coming
[[BR]]03:31 < cuco> who will clean up the place ... ? :)
[[BR]]03:31 <@yuyu> cuco, thanks
[[BR]]03:31 <@anmar> cuco: hehe.. looks like I am gonna be stuck with that task :)
[[BR]]03:31 < cuco> anmar, yuyu, no really, thank you! 
[[BR]]03:31 <@anmar> cuco: oh man.. all these beer bottles :)
[[BR]]03:31 <@yuyu> cuco, we'll awke the sleepers ;)
[[BR]]03:32  * cuco is waiting for the logs
[[BR]]03:32 < cuco> http://cucomania.homelinux.net/pub/images/kde-windows-he.JPG
[[BR]]03:32 < cuco> and that is a big lol... 
[[BR]]03:34 -!- cuco [~cuco@bzq-218-235-242.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
[[BR]]03:34 <@yuyu> man, this was an insctructive party
[[BR]]03:34 <@yuyu> but a marathonian one ;)
[[BR]]03:34 < mako-sama> it was nice :)
[[BR]]03:35 <@yuyu> nadim, did we assign slots during last year' one ?
[[BR]]03:36 < mako-sama> now i have to take some rest.. i have to wakeup at 6am (after 3hrs) -_-
[[BR]]03:36 <@yuyu> mako-sama, have nice dreams
[[BR]]03:36 < mako-sama> working + studying is hard -_-
[[BR]]03:36 <@yuyu> mako-sama, tomorrow is friday, no ?
[[BR]]03:36 -!- olimar [~olimar@p213.54.66.54.tisdip.tiscali.de] has joined #arabeyes
[[BR]]03:37 < khalifa> well, great party...
[[BR]]03:37 <@nadim> yuyu: no we didn't
[[BR]]03:37 < olimar> yeah nice party
[[BR]]03:37 <@nadim> yuyu: as noted, we're improving with time :-)
[[BR]]03:37 < mako-sama> yuyu: yeah.. but we I have work from 7 to 11
[[BR]]03:37 <@yuyu> nadim, absolutely ;)
[[BR]]03:37 <@nadim> olimar: just in time to leave :-)
[[BR]]03:37 < olimar> but it's now 2 o'cock in the morning and I am nearly dead ;)
[[BR]]03:37 < mako-sama> yuyu: because I took most of today off
[[BR]]03:37 <@nadim> mako-sama: I'm gonna hunt you down about fonts
[[BR]]03:37 <@yuyu> mako-sama, good boy ;)
[[BR]]03:37 < mako-sama> oh
[[BR]]03:37 <@nadim> brb - 5 minutes
[[BR]]03:38 < mako-sama> fonts
[[BR]]03:38 <@anmar> mako-sama: you better start running... nadim is fast :)
[[BR]]03:38 < mako-sama> :b
[[BR]]03:38 <@yuyu> OK, let e save the log
[[BR]]03:39 <@yuyu> ls -las party.txt
[[BR]]03:39 <@yuyu> 316 -rw-------  1 rahal rahal 315843 Jul 30 01:39 party.txt
[[BR]]03:39 <@anmar> brb
[[BR]]03:39 -!- anmar is now known as anmar_busy
[[BR]]03:39 <@yuyu> that's abig file
[[BR]]03:39 < olimar> how big ?
[[BR]]03:40 <@yuyu> 316 KB
[[BR]]03:40 < mako-sama> bz2
[[BR]]03:40 <@yuyu> olimar, realtively, of course
[[BR]]03:40 < olimar> yes sure
[[BR]]03:40 < khalifa> yuyu: are you uploading it somewhere ??
[[BR]]03:41 <@yuyu> yeah, we'll fin a pace for it somewhere
[[BR]]03:41 < khalifa> cvs?
[[BR]]03:41 <@yuyu> like last year's one
[[BR]]03:41 <@yuyu> khalifa, da
[[BR]]03:42 < mako-sama> i remember being here in the first evo party
[[BR]]03:42 < mako-sama> at that time, i didn't know what was happening
[[BR]]03:43 <@yuyu> khalifa, last year's log is in https://gitlab.com/arabeyes-general/ae_admin/external/tree/irc/irc.party_jul2003
[[BR]]03:43 <@yuyu> khalifa, so we'll probably put thos one there too
[[BR]]03:43 < mako-sama> yuyu: what about the year before that ?
[[BR]]03:43 <@nadim> back
[[BR]]03:43 <@yuyu> https://gitlab.com/arabeyes-general/ae_admin/external/tree/irc/
[[BR]]03:44 < mako-sama> i'll check it tomorrow..
[[BR]]03:44 < mako-sama> ttg now
[[BR]]03:44 <@yuyu> mako-sama, but i dont see any 2002 party log
[[BR]]03:44 <@nadim> before any logs are checked-in
[[BR]]03:44 < khalifa> yuyu: ok, I'll keep watching for CVS commits...
[[BR]]03:44 < mako-sama> oh
[[BR]]03:44 < mako-sama> 2002
[[BR]]03:44 <@nadim> do please santize them (email addresses, any private things, etc)
[[BR]]03:45 <@yuyu> nadim, private things ?
[[BR]]03:45 <@nadim> better yet - kuru will do it :-)
[[BR]]03:45 <@nadim> yuyu: /msg
[[BR]]03:45 <@yuyu> there are none
[[BR]]03:45 <@yuyu> at least not in my log, it's an xchat one
[[BR]]03:45 <@yuyu>  /msg's are sent into new windows
[[BR]]03:46 <@nadim> ah, its just lucky me then
[[BR]]03:46 <@yuyu> hehe. as usual ;)
[[BR]]03:46 < mako-sama> i think emails if they were mentioned are also part of the log and shouldn't be removed
[[BR]]03:47 -!- seeker [~seeker@81.10.24.211] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
[[BR]]03:47 <@nadim> mako-sama: but they should be scrambled
[[BR]]03:47 <@nadim> so that those emails don't get undue spam
[[BR]]03:48 <@nadim> so instead of person@here.com it should person-AT-here-period-com or similar
[[BR]]03:48 < mako-sama> something like nadim <at> hell <dot> org ?
[[BR]]03:48 <@nadim> something a human would get
[[BR]]03:48 <@nadim> heheh
[[BR]]03:48 <@yuyu> mako-sama, go to bed now ;)
[[BR]]03:49 < mako-sama> yah -_-
[[BR]]03:49 < mako-sama> btw.. who was the one who did that mplayer shaping patch ?
[[BR]]03:49 < mako-sama> m.sameer ?
[[BR]]03:49 <@yuyu> nadim, so, everybody showed - 1 group
[[BR]]03:49 <@yuyu> nadim, so that's very cool
[[BR]]03:49 <@nadim> mako-sama: yeah
[[BR]]03:49 < khalifa> mako-sama: M.Yousef
[[BR]]03:49 < mako-sama> ah
[[BR]]03:50 <@nadim> yuyu: now we need to summarize this log and pull out the action items and the relevant links and "I'll contact you laters" and post that somewhere for thos not looking to read the entire boring log
[[BR]]03:50 < khalifa> yuyu: which group is that ? if I might ask...
[[BR]]03:50 < mako-sama> that patch was helpful :)
[[BR]]03:50 <@nadim> yuyu: we also need to shop that summary to the various interested News sites and publications - there is alots of interesting/relevant info there
[[BR]]03:51 <@yuyu> khalifa, well, nothing secret: .sa LUG
[[BR]]03:51 <@yuyu> khalifa, you can find out by comparring the schedule and the log ;)
[[BR]]03:51 <@nadim> rather disappointing too
[[BR]]03:52 < khalifa> yuyu: dont have the log yet, and i came late :(
[[BR]]03:52 <@yuyu> khalifa, ah, ok
[[BR]]03:52 < khalifa> yuyu: did you discuss the teaching thing ??
[[BR]]03:52 <@yuyu> khalifa, apart from that, everything went perfectly :)
[[BR]]03:52 <@yuyu> khalifa, teaching ?
[[BR]]03:53 < olimar> ok dudes gotta go it was a very nice event today especially so much interesting ppl and I got to knwo so much new things!
[[BR]]03:53 < olimar> Salam!
[[BR]]03:53 < khalifa> yuyu: yeah, I especially liked the +m part, like a real presentation..
[[BR]]03:53 <@yuyu> olimar, salam
[[BR]]03:53 <@nadim> olimar: salam
[[BR]]03:53 <@nadim> olimar: thanks
[[BR]]03:54 <@yuyu> olimar, & hanks for comping an preseting
[[BR]]03:54 < khalifa> yuyu: the learning thing!!
[[BR]]03:54 <@yuyu> presenting
[[BR]]03:54 -!- olimar [~olimar@p213.54.66.54.tisdip.tiscali.de] has quit ["Leaving"]
[[BR]]03:54 < khalifa> olimar: Salam...
[[BR]]03:54 <@nadim> khalifa: about that thing we wanted to talk about later
[[BR]]03:54 <@nadim> khalifa: when you move around in vi/vim/emacs, etc the terminal receives control characters
[[BR]]03:54 < khalifa> nadim: and the Spec thing you mentioned
[[BR]]03:54 <@nadim> to tell it how the cursor is to move
[[BR]]03:54 <@nadim> or to beep or ...
[[BR]]03:55 <@nadim> khalifa: yeah
[[BR]]03:55 < khalifa> go on..
[[BR]]03:55 <@yuyu> khalifa, sorry, i'm starting to get tired and my comprehension speed is getting low. what learning thing ?
[[BR]]03:55 <@nadim> so in a normal terminal (ie. xterm) with no bidi esp those characters are defined
[[BR]]03:55 <@nadim> I don't have 'em, but they are very well defined
[[BR]]03:55 < khalifa> yuyu: err, making arabeyes teach developers or something like that...
[[BR]]03:56 <@nadim> when bidi is involved, their interprotation is now (guess what) wrong :-)
[[BR]]03:56 < khalifa> nadim: yeah i got a Link to the CTRL chars
[[BR]]03:56 <@yuyu> khalifa, ah
[[BR]]03:56 <@yuyu> khalifa, not discussed seruiously yet
[[BR]]03:56 <@nadim> khalifa: so these CTRL chars now really mean something completely different
[[BR]]03:56 <@yuyu> khalifa, it's not for the short term anyway
[[BR]]03:56 <@nadim> khalifa: and the question is "what should they mean?"
[[BR]]03:57 <@nadim> there is NO spec that tell us what to do with every single CTRL char
[[BR]]03:57 < khalifa> nadim: so you're talking about CTRL chars within bidi, right ?
[[BR]]03:57 <@nadim> and so I (and Shacher of Wine fame) and it sounds like Behdad and Dov (have in the past) called for a standard way to analyze those CTRL chars
[[BR]]03:58 <@nadim> khalifa: yeah
[[BR]]03:59 <@nadim> khalifa: so shacher is very gung-ho on this (ie. wants to do it) and we should get invovled and participate - it will directly affect what is done in putty with those things when bidi is on
[[BR]]03:59 <@yuyu> OK, I save the log at this point
[[BR]]03:59 <@nadim> yuyu: thanks for all the help !!
[[BR]]03:59 <@nadim> khalifa: one other note
[[BR]]03:59 <@yuyu> nadim, hehe. thanks
[[BR]]04:00 <@nadim> khalifa: mlterm when I was debugging it early on (when there was no arabic support) lacked alot of those CTRL properly understood functions
[[BR]]04:00 <@yuyu> nadim, thank *you* for making this a reality :-)
[[BR]]04:01 <@yuyu> 12:00 am UTC, Evolution Party ends
[[BR]]04:01 <@yuyu> Thank you everybody for coming, for your interest, for your presentations the Q/A sessions :-)
[[BR]]04:01 <@yuyu> Hope to see you next year with more accomplishments :)
[[BR]]04:02 <@nadim> khalifa: I can contact the mlterm developer for his take on things and his understanding on what they all mean (and we can look at the code of course)
[[BR]]04:02 <@nadim> khalifa: xterm and gnome-terminal have in the past said that they won't add arabic support "without a standard way to interporate edit/control characters"
[[BR]]04:02 <@nadim> khalifa: so no matter how you look at it - its needed :_)
[[BR]]04:02 <@nadim> hope that makes sense :-)
[[BR]]04:02 <@nadim> yuyu: we really need to share the load better in the future :-)
[[BR]]04:02 <@yuyu> nadim, yeah
[[BR]]04:02 <@nadim> yeah, thank you ALL for coming and being a part of this !!!!!!!
[[BR]]04:02 <@nadim> ******* Party DONE **********